Another Dough Question

Discussion in 'The Think Tank' started by sfernbach, Oct 21, 2011.

  1. sfernbach

    sfernbach New Member

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    We have a delco and I know once it gets into the box you are out of luck. When the pizza comes out of the oven and we cut it everything is great. Great crispy crust and bottom, pizza looks great but then we put it in the box and even after a few minutes the crust gets rubbery.

    We are using All Trumps flour 50lbs, 29lbs of water, 1lb sugar, 12ozs salt, 2 oz yeast and 8 oz olive oil & 8 oz of soy oil. Mix for 9 minutes then cut ball and cross stack in trays. Put in the cooler for a few hours then stack in the respective size stacks. Normally used the next day. Using cold water so the dough temp is in the 80 degree range.

    Cooking in a MM 360 @ 498 for 7 minutes.

    Any ideas on how to get rid of the rubbery texture of the dough.
     
  2. gabagool

    gabagool New Member

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    What do you mean by rubbery?? Is it undercooked?

    Id cut the mixing down a bit...HG flour should be mixed a bit less then bread or ap flour.

    try your own at 550. If its set at 500, its probably less in the oven. And 7 minutes seems low for that heat. 8 or 9 would be more conducive to a golden brown look.
     
  3. sfernbach

    sfernbach New Member

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    Thanks for the advice. What I mean by rubbery is that after it sits a while whether in the box or with the box cracked it has a very tough chew. It comes out of the oven with a great appearance. When you cut it you can hear the crispness of the crust so I dont think it is undercooked. I will try mixing it less and see what happens.
     
  4. Tom Lehmann

    Tom Lehmann Well-Known Member

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    That crust probably isn't under baked, but instead it is suffering from being steamed to death. This is commom to all pizzas placed into a box. A few things that might help ever so little:
    Make sure the box has vents.
    Put a ripple sheet ot mesh under the pizza to hold it off of the bottom of the box or cardboard circle.
    Make sure your pizza is getting a good, solid bake.
    Allow the pizza to steam off for a minute before cutting and boxing it.
    Place the box on a heated shelf as soon as possible if you don't hand it off to a customer or driver.
    Asode from that, welcome to the club.
    If you want to reduce the chewiness, use a lower protein flour, something down around 12% protein content will help to reduce the extreme chewiness (think General Mills Full Strength or Superlative flour, or its equivalent).
    Here is a sure cure: Train your customers to put the pizza back into their home oven at 400F for about 5-minutes to recrisp the pizza before serving. I've not seen a box or bag that eliminated the problem yet.
    Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor
     
  5. BBH

    BBH Member

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    It really depends on what level of crisp you are trying to achieve, you’re running at 58% hydration so I assume you want a softer finished crust.

    I assume this is a new issue or it has always been this way? Was the crust crispy at one time and now not? What does it look like now – gum lines, wet etc…..how long do you let it sit before cutting?

    If new issue what has changed – any changes to the sauce hydration, different oven, cheese, sauce etc…?

    How are you mixing and handling the Dough (procedure) – what temp is the cooler? Is the dough as crisp as you want it after 2 days?

    Lots of questions…..

    But here is my take with the little information provided.

    1) Under-Risen dough
    2) Rest time too short
    3) Cook time too short
    4) Protein content too high (less of a concern but should address if 1-3 fail)
    5) Other factors

    What I would try -

    Under-Risen Dough – First try

    Make sure you are mixing correctly – combine/dissolve salt and oil fist in the bowl. Add flour, then water then yeast (I assume IDY) – keep yeast away from direct contact with salt. Increase percents of yeast a little, you are at 0.25% which is in an acceptable range, but bump it up to 0.35% and make sure it’s good yeast – if IDY store in the fridge until ready to use. I prefer SAF instant personally.

    9 minute mix time is fine, lots of people mixing longer, some shorter, (really depends on crust style) I would mix on low for the entire duration. I don’t beat the dough up, all you need it to be is mixed well. If the dough starts climbing the hook stop regardless of the 9 minutes, with the hydration you are running the dough should be soft to the touch and smooth – sort of silky. I assume you do not autolyse.

    Make sure after mix is 80-85, leave out of the fridge for 20 minutes, if any rise, punch it down and into the fridge. Fridge temps can have an impact here . The colder it is the longer it will take for your dough to be ready, you need to experiment. Lots of restaurants run very cold coolers, too cold for dough sometimes. My dough likes 36 degrees for 24 hours. A good question is does your crust crisp how you want it after 2 days (using 2 day old dough – this is very telling and if at 2 days you like it then under-risen dough and temps are your issues for 1 day dough). If your current temp is 33 (very common) find a fridge at say 36-38 and go for a 24 hours rise.


    Rest time too short – First try

    After pulling it from the oven, place on a raised rack – all you need is some air under the crust to let it cool, don’t put in on an SS table or wood block, it needs to be raised to cool. Let it sit for 1-2 minutes before cutting

    Cook time too short – First try

    7 minutes is pretty short at 498, what does the cheese look like after 7 minutes? Crust? Whole, part skim – what kind of cheese are you using. Reason is in 7 min at those temps I can’t see a complete cook. If the cheese is pretty white, keep the temps where they are and increase cook time by 5 minutes or drop temps to 475 and go 12 minutes. This may not work for the operation, but this is a test.….the idea is to cook longer by dropping temps. I prefer slight browning to medium with a golden crust, but that’s my style.



    Protein content too high – Second try

    You may be hooked on All Trumps (maybe this is #50143?) and it will make a nice crispy crust that will last if it is cooked through,. If you are not, then as test, go pick up KAAP and use the same hydration percentages. It is a tad lower in protein content , but still higher than most. Or shift to another Gold Medal with lower 12% content.

    Other Factors - Third try

    If you have done #1 and #2 then look toward the sauce. Reduce hydration and oil if any. Too much water in the sauce will saturate the top layer you can easily see this after cutting. If the top layer is very wet and gummy, reduce the water content. Again, this can be cook time related as well.

    Don’t oil the crust before applying sauce if you do that now. Some say oiling the crust will stop the sauce from seeping in – personally, I haven’t see that to be the case.

    Do all your tests w/o veggies as they will mess with the actual results.
     
  6. Tom Lehmann

    Tom Lehmann Well-Known Member

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    Actually, 5 to 7-minutes is right in the ball park for baking time with an air impingement oven. Excessive sauce application can result in excessive moisture migration into the crust, as can an excessive load of vegetable toppings without the correct top finger profile, assuming an air impingement oven is being used. A very thin application of oil to the surface of the dough helps to create a barrier to moisture migration into the dough, but anything more than the thinest application is excessive (if you can see an oil shine on the surface of the dough skin you have enough oil on the dough). On common error that many operators make is to reduce the dough absorption in an attempt to make a crispier crust when just the opposite is what needs to be done. The only expeption to this is when making a biscuit/cracked type dough, and in that case the low absorption is needed to achieve the very unique dough characteristic common to this type of dough.
    Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor