Hand Tossed Dough

Discussion in 'The Think Tank' started by Geoff, Oct 1, 2008.

  1. Geoff

    Geoff New Member

    What causes the dough to tear during streching and spinning. Is something to be added to mix that eliminates this problem? Any help will be greatly appreciated.
  2. Charles

    Charles New Member

    Post your recipe and process for analysis. Perhaps you are not fermenting enough, not enough gluten development, not slacking long enough, need to increase hydration of recipe. Who knows?
  3. Geoff

    Geoff New Member

    1 oz dry yeast, 4 tsp salt, 1/2 cup sugar. Add 8 lbs water 79 degrees, 1 cup malt, mix well. Add 16 lbs flour,

    2 cups oil.

    Mix on low till all flour is picked up then mix on medium for 7 minutes. Remove from mixer and make dough

    balls. Place dough in cooler till needed.
  4. Daddio

    Daddio Well-Known Member

    When are you adding the oil? I found that if I added the oil about 3 minutes into the higher speed mixing I got my best results.
  5. Charles

    Charles New Member

    Daddio is right. Make sure you add the oil last.

    Also, convert the recipe to Baker's percents for easier analysis. The amount of every ingredient other than the flour is represented by weight as a percentage of the weight of flour used, preferably in grams IMO. It makes understanding your recipe easier. Actually, I didn't even figure yours out as all the conversions make my head hurt.
  6. pizzanerd

    pizzanerd Member

    Is the malt diastatic (for increased enzyme performance) or nondiastatic (for taste and/or crust coloration) and is it wet or dry? And is the yeast active dry yeast or instant dry yeast?

    PN
  7. Geoff

    Geoff New Member

    Malt is wet diastatic and yeast is instant
  8. NicksPizza

    NicksPizza Active Member

    How long does "till needed" usually entail? Do you have an overnight fermentation? Do you make and use within a couple hours? This could be a the key to your dough management hitch.
  9. Geoff

    Geoff New Member

    Usually in cooler for about 6 hours
  10. Tom Lehmann

    Tom Lehmann Active Member

    One cup, about 7-ounces of "diastatic" malt? Wow! that is quite a slug of diastatic malt. This typically limits the shelf life of the dough as it will tend to become excessively soft and tacky/sticky with extended storage time. Since the flour is already malted (check the flour bag) the addition of the extra amylase isn't needed or even desirable. If you want the malt for the flavor it imparts, you should be using "non-diastatic" malt. This is the non-enzymatic counterpart to what you are using, in this case the malt will act only as a form of sugar.
    For a good hand tossed dough, 6-hours in the cooler isn't enough to fully condition the gluten for good tossing/stretching properties. I think you problem might be two fold, the wrong type of malt, and not enough conditioning of the dough in the cooler. For best results in tossing, the dough should be allowed to ferment in the cooler for pretty close to 24-hours.
    Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor
  11. Tom Lehmann

    Tom Lehmann Active Member

    One cup, about 7-ounces of "diastatic" malt? Wow! that is quite a slug of diastatic malt. This typically limits the shelf life of the dough as it will tend to become excessively soft and tacky/sticky with extended storage time. Since the flour is already malted (check the flour bag) the addition of the extra amylase isn't needed or even desirable. If you want the malt for the flavor it imparts, you should be using "non-diastatic" malt. This is the non-enzymatic counterpart to what you are using, in this case the malt will act only as a form of sugar.
    For a good hand tossed dough, 6-hours in the cooler isn't enough to fully condition the gluten for good tossing/stretching properties. I think you problem might be two fold, the wrong type of malt, and not enough conditioning of the dough in the cooler. For best results in tossing, the dough should be allowed to ferment in the cooler for pretty close to 24-hours.
    Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor
  12. pizzanerd

    pizzanerd Member

    Tom is right on the diastatic malt. Out of curiosity, this morning I called Malt Products Corp., which purports to be the largest producer of malt products, and was told that a gallon of liquid diastatic malt weighs 11.6 pounds. At 16 cups per gallon, one cup of the liquid diastatic malt weighs 0.725 pounds. That is over 4.5% by weight of flour. Even when one considers that liquid diastatic malt is 20% water, that is still a lot of diastatic malt in relation to the weight (16 pounds) of flour. I was also told that when using added sugar in the dough formulation, as is the case here, then the amount of liquid diastatic malt should be reduced from normal recommended levels.

    PN
  13. Tom Lehmann

    Tom Lehmann Active Member

    Just in case anyone is wondering why the added sugar would be reduced or even eliminated when diastatic malt is used, this is because the amylose enzyme in the diastatic malt converts/hydrolizes a portion of the starch in the flour to sugars which the yeast can use a a nutrient and residual sugars contribute to crust color development. The reason why the dough becomes softer and more sticky with diastatic malt is due to the fact that the damaged starch in the flour is responsible for controlling much of the water absorption properties of the flour. The higher the damaged starch content, the greater the dough absorption, now the amylase hydrolizes the damaged starch to form sugars, so the water is freed up and the dough becomes softer and tacky, and then there is the conversion of starch to fermentable sugars, one of those sugars is glucose. Think of it like this, glu = glue. Glucose is a very sticky type of sugar, enter the world of a sticky dough that you can't do anything about.
    Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor
  14. Geoff

    Geoff New Member

    My mistake. I said it was diastatic malt but it is non diastatic.
  15. Tom Lehmann

    Tom Lehmann Active Member

    Sure, that's easy for you to say now! LOL :)
    Well, like Gilda Radner (SNL) used to say "Never Mind".
    That would explain why you were so quiet and not complaining about the stickiness of the dough. As such, the non-diastatic malt syrup is just another sugar source.
    Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor
  16. Geoff

    Geoff New Member

    Sorry. GO GILDA we miss you
  17. pizzanerd

    pizzanerd Member

    Geoff,

    If my math is correct, I estimate that the hydration of your dough when accounting for the water in the malt syrup (I used 20% water) is around 53.7% (the nominal hydration is 50%), total sugar (including the solids in the malt syrup) is around 5%, the IDY is 0.39%, the salt is 0.31%, and the oil is around 6%. All percents are with respect to the weight of flour (256 oz.). Tom might want to comment, but the salt level (4 t. for 256 ounces of flour) seems to me to be on the low side.

    What weight of dough balls are you using and what is the corresponding pizza size?

    PN
  18. Geoff

    Geoff New Member

    3oz for a 7" 9oz for 12" and 14oz for 14"

    Thanks to al who are helping me so far
  19. Charles

    Charles New Member

    Boy, does that make me feel old. I still remember Emily Litella. "Why do we need to conserve Natural Race Horses?"

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