Cartop Sign Cords... do your drivers Buy them?

[Roger]

@gregster

Cutting a drivers mileage reimbursment could result in a minimum wage violation.

If drivers are already being paid minimum wage or less, forcing them to pay for anything that is r4quired for the job is an illegal minimum wage violation.

Think carefully and consult competant legal advice before making and deductions from or charges to a minimum wage employees pay.

From: Fact Sheet #16: Deductions From Wages for Uniforms and Other Facilities Under the Fair Labor Standards Act (FLSA)

Other Items: Employers at times require employees to pay or reimburse the employer for other items. The cost of any items which are considered primarily for the benefit or convenience of the employer would have the same restrictions as apply to reimbursement for uniforms. In other words, no deduction may be made from an employee’s wages which would reduce the employee’s earnings below the required minimum wage or overtime compensation.

Some examples of items which would be considered to be for the benefit or convenience of the employer are tools used in the employee’s work, damages to the employer’s property by the employee or any other individuals, financial losses due to clients/customers not paying bills, and theft of the employer’s property by the employee or other individuals. Employees may not be required to pay for any of the cost of such items if, by so doing, their wages would be reduced below the required minimum wage or overtime compensation. This is true even if an economic loss suffered by the employer is due to the employee’s negligence.

Employers may not avoid FLSA minimum wage and overtime requirements by having the employee reimburse the employer in cash for the cost of such items in lieu of deducting the cost from the employee’s wages.

http://img367.imageshack.us/img367/3516/deadhorseho2bj3.gif

[steveo922]

Gregster, thank you very much for proving my point exactly. You’re here for one reason as I already stated.

@gregster

Minimum wage laws are “crap” and “stupid”? How so?

You would fire people for pointing out that an employer is breaking the law? Please explain that further. Are you advocating breaking minimum wage laws?

If I was fired for pointing out a law violation, I would likely sue the business, and not accept any settlement offers that did not close the business. I do not condone violating minimum wage laws. In my opinion, it is theft, pure and simple.

Thank you for manipulating my words again. Where did I say that minimum wage laws are crap or stupid? You’re changing my words around, putting words in my mouth. Not once did I say “minimum wage laws are crap”, or “minimum wage laws are stupid”.

And for the record… In Illinois, and since you’re the LAW king, I’m sure you’re aware that business owners and managers can fire whoever they please, whenever they please, and for whatever reason they please. So before you come in here and think you can just go ahead and sue me, think again. You wouldn’t be able to prove I broke any wage violation laws.

See, you really know how to get under peoples skin… I am not that kind of person, I’m not fire-happy. I don’t even have any drivers, nor do I use car toppers, NOR DO I PAY MINIMUM WAGE OR BELOW… Seriously, you have way too much time on your hands.

[steveo922]

@Roger

http://img367.imageshack.us/img367/3516/deadhorseho2bj3.gif

BTW, That is hilarious, where did you get that from?

Do you know what movie thats from (the guy punching… not the dead horse or whatever that thing is)?

[Piper]

@steveo922

Do you know what movie thats from (the guy punching… not the dead horse or whatever that thing is)?

I do believe that’s from the classic Office Space

“PC Load Letter? What the f@#k does that mean?”

[steveo922]

@Piper

“PC Load Letter? What the f@#k does that mean?”

Man, I just literally laughed out loud. hahaha… I think I’m gonna watch that tonight.

“Why should I change MY name, he’s the one that sucks!”.

[system]

Office space, when he starts punching the printer.

[system]

@Registered Guest

Exactly Wizzle. This doesn’t need to be a legal issue.

Employers do not need to deduct from pay for the cords.

Employers do not even need to require that a driver purchase the cords from them.

Employers CAN require that the drivers use a lighted car sign. How the driver goes about doing that is the drivers business. Just like the employer requires the driver have a car.

This doesn’t need to be a compensation issue at all.

If the driver buys the cord himself, he can of course keep the cord even after employment stops. It’s his.

If it is a requirement for the business, no matter how the item is paid for, if the employee is forced to bear the cost, the net wage must not fall below minimum wage. It’s as simple as that.

[system]

@Roger

http://img367.imageshack.us/img367/3516/deadhorseho2bj3.gif

Thanks for pointing that out Roger. I too would like to think that compliance with and understanding of minimum wage laws should be such a non-issue that it barely evokes more than a yawn out of business owners. Trouble is (as I see it) that even reminding folks to be careful about minimum wage compliance evokes what I see as hostility.

That someone even has to ask “What about tips?” means that there are still some that do not completely understand the laws and how they apply in the pizza delivery business. In other words, the horse is not dead.

[steveo922]

So again… without the law, its morally ok to break your employers stuff and not be held responsible for it?

Man, the drivers really do have the best jobs in the world. I’m gonna go find a part time delivery job, break all their stuff and when they ask me to pay for it, I’ll just sue them.

Btw, while we’re on the subject of breaking laws… Do you know what this is?

http://i697.photobucket.com/albums/vv338/PizzaGuy_22/sign.jpg

Thats a speed limit sign, and did you know that its ILLEGAL to go 1 mph over? Have you ever gone 1 mph over the posted speed limit?

[paul7979]

So again… without the law, its morally ok to break your employers stuff and not be held responsible for it?

Actually Steve breaking your employers stuff is specifically encouraged over at TTPG.

[paul7979]

That someone even has to ask “What about tips?” means that there are still some that do not completely understand the laws and how they apply in the pizza delivery business

Greg the fact that you ignore sections of the DOL handbook (just one page past a section that you love to refer to) that shows an example of when it is allowable to use tips towards expenses and continue to post statments such as

THAT is why you must fully reimburse minimum wage employees for “uniforms” or Mileage, or anything else you require them to purchase "for the employers benefit
shows that you either don’t understand the laws and how they apply to pizza delivery or you just pick and choose only the parts that support your arguement and pretend the rest doesn’t exist.

[Charles]

@paul7979

Actually Steve breaking your employers stuff is specifically encouraged over at TTPG.

:lol: He ain’t lyin.

[Piper]

My last post was a little off topic, so on topic…

I don’t make them buy them. I supply them, they use them.

There’s no reason to make them pay for them or have any minimum wage discussions about the topic. It’s really simple: If an employee breaks or loses my stuff, I cut them their final paycheck and go grab the 2 inch stack of applications on my desk. Why would you put up with someone that continually loses or breaks your property?

How long would the employee stick around if you kept losing their paycheck?

[Registered_Guest]

@gregster

@Registered Guest

Exactly Wizzle. This doesn’t need to be a legal issue.

Employers do not need to deduct from pay for the cords.

Employers do not even need to require that a driver purchase the cords from them.

Employers CAN require that the drivers use a lighted car sign. How the driver goes about doing that is the drivers business. Just like the employer requires the driver have a car.

This doesn’t need to be a compensation issue at all.

If the driver buys the cord himself, he can of course keep the cord even after employment stops. It’s his.

If it is a requirement for the business, no matter how the item is paid for, if the employee is forced to bear the cost, the net wage must not fall below minimum wage. It’s as simple as that.

Really? What about the car, your shoes, you pants, you underwear. Your glasses so you can see. Your haircuts. The hot water you use because I require you to be clean. What about all of that?

Either way it doesn’t really matter. Like was stated above, the bottom line can legally be if you lose this cord you lose your job. It’s as simple as that, no?

[Wizzle_Wassell]

I believe in the eyes of the law ANY deduction FROM wages which takes an employee BELOW MW is exactly the same as paying sub minimum wage. I believe there are some exceptions for housing, loans advances etc. In addition if you do not have explicit wording in your contracts/employee handbooks then if you make a deduction it would be treated as an ‘illegal deduction’.

Whilst I believe this is a ridiculous law in many ways as it means effectively staff can lose/damage equipment and you can’t legally deduct, it is the law and many big company’s have had bad publicity over this. If someone maliciously damages equipment you have choices (dependant on the severity):

a) you can enter into a voluntary arrangement with the employee - just document it and don’t take it from payroll so that it doesn’t give anyone the false pretense of being a deduction from MW.
b) you can of course discipline (including termination) and
c) of course report them for criminal damage and take legal action to recover the costs. Faced with the latter most people I would assume would enter into a voluntary arrangement

With regards to Gregsters comments:

If it is a requirement for the business, no matter how the item is paid for, if the employee is forced to bear the cost, the net wage must not fall below minimum wage. It’s as simple as that’

no Gregster, that is NOT true and its NOT as simple as that. There are plenty of items that the business require (as stated by Registered Guest) that individual pay for which clearly do not impact on this. I believe it is only true it the item is for EXCLUSIVE use by the business. Another key word is ‘forced’. That’s why in my case I give them a choice.

I make a number of charges with the full backing for my HR insurance indemnity provider for things such as lost/damaged uniform. I no longer issue ‘floats’ to my driving staff as one came in very short one night and I was told that deducting a cash short over and above his mileage was a MW violation. Therefore, I now issue my driving staff with an advance each shift - so I am now covered to the full extent of the mileage owed and the ‘advance’ which has provided sufficient cover. Where a driver goes over this amount as they had to purchase fuel etc they sign to this extent as an advance.

Legally you can’t just dip into someones pay to recover costs for, in this case car topper leads. but I would of course suggest that you seek the advice of a specialist in this area as there are ways to protect yourself and get to the same end result. Of course there is nothing to stop you asking for the money from the individual to repair the damage and if they choose to pay you then that is their choice.

[paul7979]

Charles

Joined: 03 Sep 2007
Posts: 1058
Location: Mansfield, TX
Post subject: Re: Cartop Sign Cords… do your drivers Buy them? Posted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 3:56 pm

---

paul7979 wrote:
Actually Steve breaking your employers stuff is specifically encouraged over at TTPG.

He ain’t lyin.

---

Charles
Join The Pizza Crafters

Here’s the suggestion from one of our good driver buddys who comes over to this site to help us.

Dox47

Loyal Driver

Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 808

1/20/09 10:08:47 PM

I had a topper stolen by frat boys once, and it also happened to one of my coworkers, but that one turned up in a dumpster a few days later. I suppose that if you really wanted to get rid of your sign, and make a buck in the process, you could arrange for one to be “stolen”, then scrub off the logos and sell it on Ebay. I know it’s not that hard to put a new wrap on those things, and they go for $100+ new, so why throw money away?

So now my question is can I count the money they sell the stolen sign for as compensation against the minimum wage pay? :lol:

[Wizzle_Wassell]

isn’t it funny how quiet it goes around here every now and then??

Should I fetch the tumble weed out again?

[steveo922]

I was thinking the same thing.

I GUARANTEE they have read it, just chose not to reply. And I would be that they’re going to come on here (exactly like they did last time) and say “I have a life outside of the computer” hahaha…

[Wizzle_Wassell]

he’s been very active on TTPG.

[pizzagal2]

Wow, what was the original question? Its amazing how simple questions always turn into MW debates. Some people on this forum need to have a special area in the TT, so they can preach to their own choir. We’re tired of listening. Yawn…