Choosing an oven - help

Pizza Shop Talk The Think Tank
1

Hi all…first post here tried to search for some of this but I have a few questions I couldn’t find answers to.

Opening a shop in a small college town in about 45 days…money in the bank ready for equipment purchase so i am looking for an oven. Here are some back ground and some questions that I have.

Oven requirements:
Double Stack
Prefer Lincoln but not “stuck on it”
left to right conveyor preferred
leased space only has single phase electric available
Natural Gas also available
18" wide belt or wider

Other info:
We expect to do about 100-125 pizzas a day when things get rolling or pizza sizes are 12"/14"/16"/18" and we plan on baking or wings (no fryer = no ansel system).

Questions:

  1. Because of the availability and price of Lincoln 1132 electric double stack ovens we believe it would be our best bet. The problem is that they are 3-phase. Is it possible to convert to single phase? Is there a disadvantage?
  2. Since Natural Gas is there a reasonably affordable used gas oven that most shops prefer (like under $8000).
  3. Is it easy to convert a “right to left” oven to “left to right”
  4. Is a single oven with a 32" belt as productive as a double stack with 18" belts?
  5. Any other suggestions for choosing an oven?

Thanks for any help you can provide. The posts in the TT are awesome for a new startup like mine.

Vinny

2

You can purchase and have installed a phase inverter/converter to account for the issue. I cannot speak to their cost for hardware or installation, only their existence.

Baker’s Pride Y602 and Y802 are very popular deck ovens. Marshall Middleby 350 is the conveyor workhorse I believe lots of folks are driving in their stores. Both can be gas appliances.

I would think that productivity would depend on how many of the larger 2 sizes you sell. One 32" belt can carry only one 18" pie while two can run on double 18" belts. You MIGHT get two 16" pies on the 32" belt . . . definitely two on the double belts.

Double stack gives you redundancy and at least partial capacity in the case of a single oven failure. One oven means shutdown if oven kicks it. Just a sconsideration to think on . . . not a mandate from God or anything (props out to ya’ j_r0kk).

3

I’m not sure a phase converter is an option, due to the power requirements…just looked @ their website…nice thing 'bout electric in my neighborhood is no ansel system or make-up air required…

double stack options are always nice…

I use a CTX electric oven(2) - they can be wired single or 3-phase, but they are an odd oven, but I prefer them…(quite!)…you can find them on ebay from time 2 time…they, too, take alotta power, but produce!!! - 2 18" conveyors…

most conveyors are field reverseable…

4

im running two lincoln 1132 ovens stacked when i bought mine they were three phase switched to single phase no problem ,belt direction is interchangeble when we bought ours i knew nothing about ovens i got hold of greg at AMS enterprises up in knoxville i took in two train wrecks of ovens and he took care of me real good got me up and going was great with tech support. all the do is refurbish conveyor ovens,hobart mixers and sheeters these guys rock!!! they can sell you a completly gone through oven with warranty for about 1/2 of what new cost check them out 865 524 2087 ask for greg
http://www.amsenterprises.com/

5

We expect to do about 100-125 pizzas a day when things get rolling or pizza sizes are 12"/14"/16"/18" and we plan on baking or wings (no fryer = no ansel system).

Questions:

  1. Because of the availability and price of Lincoln 1132 electric double stack ovens we believe it would be our best bet. The problem is that they are 3-phase. Is it possible to convert to single phase? Is there a disadvantage?
  2. Since Natural Gas is there a reasonably affordable used gas oven that most shops prefer (like under $8000).
  3. Is it easy to convert a “right to left” oven to “left to right”
  4. Is a single oven with a 32" belt as productive as a double stack with 18" belts?
  5. Any other suggestions for choosing an oven?

Thanks for any help you can provide. The posts in the TT are awesome for a new startup like mine.

  1. probably, but 100-125 pizzas/day will be tough to do woth these ovens.
  2. a stack of lincoln 1000’s should be an option in this price range and would be an excellent option. If you got lucky, a stack of middleby marshall 360’s or 350’s might be able to be had in this price range. A stack of Blodgett 3270’s would also be an option.
  3. yes.
  4. usually more so because the cook chamber is typically longer.
  5. Gas ovens will usually be more economical to run.
6

pizzabartn: do you know what the process was for converting yours ovens to single phase? Do you need an electrician? Equipment specialist? Could a person DIY?

Thanks for all your comments. Looking forward to others!

Vinny

7

Depending on how you expect your business to flow hourly, a double stack may be enough to handle your projected volume. We do about the same on average days at my second store and we do it with a triple stack of lincoln 1132 electrics. We generally only use the third oven on really big days.

The redundancy factor is VERY important. We have a significant repair issue with one oven or another at least once a year. Having the extra ovens keeps us in business!

If you have gas available and can get the hood installed, that will save you a lot of money on your utilities. Electric ovens costs a lot to run.

8

Hello Vinnie,I have double stack Lincolns that run right to left and they work great.I would highly suggest you get a 36’’ wide so you can handle the 18’’ pies as I also do.With the gas you only need a single phase and is much cheaper to run than electric.You may also need an 8’x6’ hood w/ exaust over your ovens.

             Good luck bro,Niccademo
9

Another question for you; Why do you want to make four sizes? That is extra prep complexity and, probably, no extra sales. If you decide you can do without 18" you have a lot more choices in ovens.

10

Yeah…that was not suppose to be four sizes.

What we are thinking is 14" / 16" / 18" and we are considering calling those sizes Mega Medium, Larger Large and Vinny’s Jumbo respectively. But, we think this might cause confusion because our “medium” is the same as our competitor’s large. So we are considering 12"/15"/18" (bet then we would have to drop the MEGA). We believe, that to some extent the titles (MEGA Medium) will overcome some of this…but I am open to everyones thoughts.

Also, as pizzabarntn pointed out, the size difference is not that great (in the customer’s mind) when they order a bigger pizza from the next size down.

Do you all think 12’ / 15" / 18" would be better sizes (aside from the obvious food cost savings).

Vinny

11

Currently there are a double stack Middelby Marshall PS350 on E-Bay at U$9995 Buy Now. These are refurbished with warranty. Belts are 32 inch. These are great ovens, natural gas only requiring single phase 10amp plug. I was looking at getting these shipped over as they are a great price and work well despite their age ( I would think about 15 years old going by the pictures).

As far as size I think you would find that the 18" would be a hell of a lot slower selling than the others. My guess would be 14" as the majority, then 16", then 12" and then 18". I would recommend going 10", 14" and 16". If they want a really big one sell two 14" and you will make more money. My personal preferance would be going 10", 13" and 15" and be that little bit different without showing too much variance to others and then get a better return per sale.

Just because everyone else does 12, 14, 16 doesn’t mean you have to. They all say they are individuals yet they all do the same sizes. Reminds me a bit of a Monty Python skit - 1st “I’m an individual” 2nd ‘I’m going to do the same as you and be an individual as well’ and so on

Use the K.I.S.S. principle - Keep it Simple (Stupid) and keep your choices and prep down. As you are opening fresh you can dictate the sizes available and they will respond to what you have on offer. You have no precedent for your store to follow.

Just my 1.7 cents worth (the Aussie $ is pretty good at the moment)

Dave

12

12/15/18 might work. To go back to an earlier post on this thread, you definitlely want to have 2 ovens for redundency. Also gas is MUCH cheaper than electric to operate.

13

Thanks for all your comments. It has been very helpful. I am considering that Middleby PS350 on eBay (got it on my watch list).

Also, there is a Gas Lincoln 1000 in the PMQ classifieds located in Michigan with a hood vent for $6500. To me this sounds like checking out and it is lot closer to North Dakota so I could probably run out and trailer it back on an enclosed Uhall.

Anyone know anything about the Lincoln 1000 - what to look for etc. Is there an age to stay away from?

Thanks again for all your help.

Vinny

14

MM 350’s are loud as are lincoln 1000’s, 350s are louder. I like the lincoln bake better.

15

hence the quiteness of the CTX…

16

Thanks for all your help. It looks like we are deciding between a late eighties Lincoln 1000 (with an eyebrow hood) for $6500 or a late 90s Blodgett MT3240G for $7000.

Who would have thought choosing an oven would be this hard.

Vinny

17

Just one guy’s view on used or reconditioned conveyor ovens.

We reconditioned a ton of Middlebys and sold them nation wide.

Rented 30 of them for the 2nd Woodstock festival. But that’s another story.

Our eventual experience was that to restore and update an oven to close to new condition we had to offer them for close to the price of a new XLT.

Most old ovens on the market have not been brought up to current standards. The older burners only burn about 80% of the gas consumed.

Older ovens are certified to be operated with a flue pipe or some call it an exhaust pipe. About 10% or more of the heat generated goes out that pipe without baking any product.

Most new ovens burn 98% of the gas and do not require flue or exhaust pipes. Many other improvements made in the last 20 years are not available on reconditioned ovens

Most older ovens are 208-220 volt for the electrical system that runs the blowers and conveyors. Newest models require only 120 volt and are 1/2 the cost electrically to operate. That’s about a $1,400.00 per year savings on electricity alone for a double stack over a double MM PS360 or any other model requiring 208-220 volts. Over the useful life of an oven (about 20 years) it can be that the electrical savings alone returns the cost of the oven.

Most of the older ovens require substantial disassembly to clean. Its about a three hour project on many. Newest models can be cleaned in minutes.

Parts for the older ovens are about 2/3 more than for new models.

Older reconditioned ovens usually have limited warranties. New ovens have two year warranties.

Middleby offers an exceptionally well rebuilt double PS 360 for $22,999.00 and they have access to parts at volume discounts. Our experience was that we could not properly recondition an old double Middleby and sell it for less than $19,000.00 and even then they did not have the operating savings and all the features of the new models.

New ovens of the same capacity can be purchased for less cost than Middleby’s rebuilt PS 360.

My observation is that when an old oven is purchased many buyers soon pay the price of a new unit through greater operating cost and continue to pay that greater operating cost as long as the older ovens are in use.

Again just my observations yours may differ.

George Mills.

18

Again thanks for eveyones help. But now I have another question.

We decided to go with the Blodgett MT3240 Gas Oven double stack. The oven has a built in “In-Vent” hood system like this http://www.blodgett.com/Literature/Sales%20Lit/invent-sell.pdf. We called a mechanical contractor about installation and he thought that we might also need an additional type II hood.

Anyone with knowledge of the Randall/Blodgett “In-Vent” system. Should this be sufficient for ventelation?

(Note: We have also contacted the local building inspector but he is pretty clueless - i.e. “I’ll look it up” … or …“I’ll find out” but never seems to know.)

Thanks

Vinny

19

chances are, with any gas system that opens (vrs a closed deck style oven) will prob need make-up air and an ansel system - it all depends on local codes…so if your inspector is clueless, then be prepared 2 pay a Fool’s Tax…

20

I MIGHT BE MISTAKEN,BUT I SEE NO FANS TO DRIVE THE AIR TO AND FROM
THE UNIT.
LOOKS TO ME YOU WILL STILL NEED AN OUTSIDE EVACUATION TO RID THE
GASES