Dough Doctor or Flour Expert

I currently use General Mills All Trumps flour. I’m fairly happy with my dough, but I’m curious about my options for other flours. My dough recipe is based on Tom’s New York Style crust that was posted 5 years ago in the recipe bank. Current dough management procedure is balling and wiping with oil in cross stacked dough trays… then wheeled into the cooler for two hours and then down stacked and the dough is typically used 24-48 hours later. I’m very happy with the way the dough handles straight out of the cooler. Very little bubbling or blistering for a cold dough thrown straight into the oven. I don’t have a proofer, or the desire to want to work with the production schedule of setting out dough to proof ahead of an order. Now on to my question. I’d like to see my dough have a little bit more cell structure. NOT extreme. Just a little bit more. I don’t want to move my product away from what my customers currently enjoy, but I think I could improve it slightly. Does anyone have a flour recommendation with similar hydration requirements that might give my crust a more open cell structure? Please keep in mind I’m only looking at changing my flour. Not changing my dough management procedures.


flour with less protein, same hydration, less mixing to keep from over developing the gluten…more mixing developes gluten more and makes for denser porosity

…of course Tom Lehmann can give you better advice, just my 2 cents worth until he responds

I use
12.5% protein flour
61% water
2.75% salt
.45% IDY

…stop mixing before the batch gets smooth, about 8 to 9 minutes…I have a barrel mixers so I cannot say on a planetary mixer, could only tell by looking at the batch
sounds like I do the rest of the procedure the same
am happy with the varied porosity that I get
hope that helps,


The dough formulation you have been using calls for a hydration of 58-65%. Where are you in that range? Also, has the rise of the dough changed in recent months as the weather has turned cooler?

higher hydration low mixing will get you there , lower mixing time will also produce a better flavor

(Pre-opening labwork here)

Everyone around here in Texas does NY “style” crust. Not sure if it really is or not. It is crisp for about 5 minutes, then becomes a floppy chewy mess.

We are currently enjoying a crust that is crispy on the bottom (and seems to stay crispy decently) and is a bit thicker and very tender. No chewiness.

High hydration, autolyse 20 minutes (sorry Doc), mixed lightly, low finishing temp, and slow long fermentation (48-72 hours). We leave a 1" edge so it will puff up, then brush with garlic-infused butter after cooking. So far, testers are saying it is a terrific crust. We are still playing with salt and oil content along with the rest of the variables.

…whatever works for you, keep experimenting, testing and verifying til you get to the crust you want
because of all the variables, there is no one “fix”
sounds like you are getting closer

…I’ve done the autolyse procedure too
I think it it has some positive effect when hand kneading…my mixer is not that sensitive and I do not see a difference when doing a batch on the mixer…
lately, I have been hydrating the the flour with the IDY and adding the salt after hydration…
…I’ve hydrated the flour with the salt and added IDY afterwards…
I do not see a difference in the finished dough yet…
anyway, experiment and verify for yourself,

…lillian, do you autolyse ? done it different ways, found out different things ? what flour protein, hydration ?
so many variables, so little time, appreciate any results you find different from my…I think protein level and hydration are 2 major factors


dewar do you use a low yeast too? what is your yeast precentage and what kind of yeast ? instant /dry or fresh?

I’ll ask my partner. I am the systems/conceptual thinker, he is the detail guy. He writes all the stuff down.

what autolyse is a method to decrease dough oxidation by autolyse you are reaching the smooth dough state faster ,well i do not do autolyse what i do is mix my dough for 7 minutes total 2 m on low 5 on second speed
and i use long bulk fermentation low yeast 0.125% instant, room fermentation for about 7 hours.
durning that i fold the dough once , folding and long fermentation will help in creating strong glutin so i do not do autolyse . now my end product is a thin crust and so far i am happy with it but i wanted to be better .

No offense, lillian, but your prose makes it very difficult to understand what you are trying to say.

We actually want to decrease gluten so that the crust is less chewy and more tender. Hence, the autolyse to reduce mixing time. The high protein content seems to provide a crispy bottom. And the lower gluten also means the edge of the crust is tender as well, which we hope compliments the garlic butter flavoring we put on it. Several tasters have told us they normally do not eat the crust edge on pizzas, but ours makes them look forward to it. It is like enjoying garlic bread with each slice.

It is also nice that it means lower food cost.

dewar correct if i am wrong i thought the idea behind autolyse is to reduce the oxidation of the dough by reducing the mixing time (Raymond Calvel the taste of bread )

I suppose so. We were trying to reduce the mixing time to control gluten. Partner said he does not think it makes a difference.

Yeast was 0.5% instant yeast.

TY you dewar i am in dallas where is mansfield?

SE of Fort Worth, SW of Dallas. Other side of Joe Pool Lake from you.