Here is a nice invention that decreases your electric bill!

Pizza Shop Talk The Think Tank
1

My Uncle brought some people to see me from an electrical contracting company based in Maryland. I have a Car Wash and Pizza Shop. They showed me how the following device can store electric current and lower the amount of electricity thats is used by motors, fans, and even lights. This device works especially well at the start up of a motor when the motor needs that surge of electricity to get it moving. It will even prolong the life of motors, fans, and even light bulbs. It pays for itself within 6 to 10 months based on the electrical current you need.

Check it out at:
http://www.power-save1200.com/1200?gcli … GgodyVlCgw

With all the talk about utilities on the board lately I figured that this topic might be needed.
This device will save me $100’s per month at my car wash and around $100 per month at my pizza shop.

On a second note, Since I bought my new oven I have saved enough in utilities per month to cover the payments for the oven. Technology is always improving. Unfortunately it is sometimes hidden from us by the people who don’t want us to know about it.

2

Re: Here is a nice invention that decreases your electric bi

POTM, please reconsider before purchasing this.

This type of device only works with inductive loads like motors, relays or flourescents; it will do nothing for resistive loads like incandescent lights or heating elements.

Beyond that, it most likely won’t save you a penny if you’re not a large industrial building. This device optimizes your “power factor” for inductive loads. However, you aren’t charged by your utility for poor power factor. This product reduces your Volt-Amps (kVA). Unfortunately, you are not charged for VA, you are charged for Watts… and those don’t change with this device attached. You are reducing the current load on the power grid for the utility company, but you aren’t saving any money.

Big factories with 30hp electric motors and such are charged for poor power factor and have large capacitors on their inductive devices to reduce their bills. That’s all this is: a capacitor… it’s nothing new. It just doesn’t work in residential and non-industrial sized applications.

Occam’s Razor is in effect here. This technology has been around for a long time; if it could save 25% on your electric bill they would be installed standard on every home.

You can check with your electric company to see if you are being charged for poor power factor, but I’m 99% sure that you’re not in a Car Wash or a Pizzeria.

I would also be VERY suspicious of the electrical contractor selling this to you… even if you were being charged for poor power factor, this device would have absolutely no effect with incandescent lights. It would reduce the PF for fluorescent lighting, but they told you it would prolong the life of “light bulbs”. That kind of incorrect information would send me looking for a new electrician.

Caveat emptor; This thing is snake-oil.

Edited to add: Even when industrial plants use these on large motors they must be 1) properly engineered to the load and 2) switched on and off precisely with the load. Having them mis-sized or online at all times may significantly shorten the life of your equipment; exactly opposite of what they claim. They can also induce harmonics that can be damaging to computers.

3

Re: Here is a nice invention that decreases your electric bi

I came across this years ago and almost ordered it. I first did a internet search and came across some forum talkind about it. Most if not all the people who bought it didn’t save any money. If it sounds to good to be true…
What

4

Re: Here is a nice invention that decreases your electric bi

This website isn’t the actual unit they were showing me but it is similar. They are to custom make the one for my car wash that runs on 7 motors and countless relays. It is also three phase.

For the Pizza shop all I have is floresant lights, motors for hot water heating, air conditioning, and of course the mixer and slicer.

My Uncle just got his first electric bill since he had a Kvar installed and it was $90 less than the same time last year.

The electrical contractor also specializes in windmill and solar panel installs.

5

Re: Here is a nice invention that decreases your electric bi

And are you certain that the electric company is charging you for kVAR? If they’re not, this device will have NO impact. As I posted, unless you’re a large industrial complex there’s a 99% chance you are only being charged for kWh, not kVAR. I’m not denying that this works if you are charged for kVAR. But you’re not.

Then why did you say they showed how “the following device” could “store electric current”? Why post the link to the power-save 1200 if that’s not what you were talking about? Now you’re saying that wasn’t what you meant; the device is only “similar” to what you’re getting. What you posted above and the power-save 1200 are not similar.

Also, kVAR units do not contain a motor. Why are they custom making yours with 7 motors? What are the 7 motors for? What are the countless relays for?

And why did they tell you that it would extend the life of light bulbs when it won’t?

That isn’t statistically significant. My electric bill for May at my restaurant was $110 lower than last year and I didn’t do anything. We did, however, have cooler weather than last May.

I’m not trying to be argumentative with you, but these things have been proven over and over again to be snake-oil and they shouldn’t be suggested to anybody here.

http://www.mikeholt.com/newsletters.php … tterID=406

6

Re: Here is a nice invention that decreases your electric bi

You are confusing me. Maybe I should edit the post.
My car wash has 7 motors and countless relays. Not the KVAR unit.
As far as the bulbs go, well who cares.
And my uncle had this installed at his HOUSE. Not everyone in the world owns a Pizza Shop.
Anyway, I think the savings is well worth at least bringing up.
It’s up to anyone interested in saving on their elctric bill to at least know that there are ways to save.

7

Re: Here is a nice invention that decreases your electric bi

POTM,
I was turned off by the all the negative stuff I read.When you try it get back to the forum with your savings over 6 onths to a year,at both locations. \We would all like to save money, just don’t know if that’s the answer.
What

8

Re: Here is a nice invention that decreases your electric bi

Wow Piper! I know you’re into pizza, but you’re an electrical engineer too? I’m amazed I learned so much from your post.

9

Re: Here is a nice invention that decreases your electric bi

Pizza of the month - One question - is these actually work - why would you have not heard about these years ago? Why wouldn’t they be installed in every place that uses electricity? Doesn’t everyone want to save money?

These “my electric bill this month was less than it was last year” “evidence” is hilarious. That surely isn’t any proof that this thing work one bit. You’d need to show that you had exactly the same load and somehow has less KWH used. Simply saying the bill was less proves absolutely nothing.

10

Re: Here is a nice invention that decreases your electric bi

Well first off, they are not cheap. And second, All I know is what I saw on the current meter that I OWN that showed and significant drop in electricity needed to power a device such as a car wash pump and hot water pump. And Lastly, I never siad that I had evidence my electric bill went down. My Uncle showed me his 2007 and 2008 bills for May and it was over 30% less.

:idea: I guess now would not be a good time to discuss infared heating for this winter. :idea:

11

Re: Here is a nice invention that decreases your electric bi

I’ll admit to being a bit of a nerd…

I received my degree in finance, but I took a few Electrical Engineering courses as electives because I was interested. Then about 18 months ago we finished building a new home and I decided to put a “couple” of automated lighting devices in my family room.

That quickly became an entire home automation project (my wife was thrilled) and it required tampering with pretty much my entire electrical system. I started reading everything I could get my hands on regarding power distribution so as to not get myself killed. I even talked an electrician friend into letting me tag along on some jobs where he needed an extra hand so I could learn more.

POTM, that’s exactly why there’s so much confusion over these! They WILL reduce the current used. But, your electric meter doesn’t meter current used, it meters wattage used. Notice that your electric bill lists kWh, not Amps. Those two are equal in resistive loads like incandescent lights, but they’re not equal in inductive loads because of the power factor. Your current will drop with this device, but wattage (what you’re being billed for) stays exactly the same.

Now, the power company’s cost is in how much current they deliver. That means they have to deliver you more current for inductive loads and they don’t get paid for it. That’s why they put current meters and not wattage meters in industrial applications; because there’s A LOT of inductive load in those applications. And that’s why these capacitors are used in industrial applications… they do save those facilities money. There’s actually a conspiracy theory out there that power companies want to push these on residences so their costs will drop.

Obviously we’re well beyond the scope of the PMQ TT, but read that link I posted above from the Mike Holt website… it explains these things pretty well and even shows the math behind them. The math is interesting, because it shows that at times where you have NO inductive load running that a kVAR will actually cost you more money.

This will save you a significant amount of money only if your electric company is charging your for poor power factor, but I’ve never seen (or heard of) a residential or light commercial location fitted with that kind of meter. Please check with your electric company before you purchase this.

I know you posted this to try and save people money, but trust me, I’m trying to do the same for you!

12

Re: Here is a nice invention that decreases your electric bi

Who cares if they are not cheap - if you save money, why doesn’t everyone have them installed? Why not every new contstruction? Why are you just now hearing about these - they have been around for years?

You don’t need to know all of the electrical engineering stuff to answer these quesions. It’s simple - it’s because THEY DON"T WORK!

13

Re: Here is a nice invention that decreases your electric bi

Hot water on demand devices (like Rennai) are a good similarity. They started as a fad or novelty, and now are installed all over the place in both residential and commercial locations. It works at saving money, and it has a conservation value as well.

The invention originally starting this conversation may one day be all the rage everywhere . . . but for now (and for a lot of years to date) don’t have significant enough money saving and conservation value to have any “legs” for growing.

14

Re: Here is a nice invention that decreases your electric bi

Nick - this is nothing like on demand water heaters.

To put it simply, these devices DO NOT alter the laws of physics. Period. These devices have been around for more than 40 years - capacitors have been used in industrial applications for that long. Again, the main point here is how you pay for your electricity - and if you are paying by killowatt hours used (like 99.9% of the electic consumers do) you will NOT save one penny using this device. Again, the laws of physics do not change just because you connect this type of device - you will consume EXACTLY the same killowatt hours of electricity no matter what - and again - if you pay your bill by killowatt hour - then you will not save one penny!

15

Re: Here is a nice invention that decreases your electric bi

Actually, the you go on to prove the similarity I was trying to show (really rather poorly) that the heaters started as fringe/fad technology accepted primarily by early-adopters and specialty applications - maybe not so much a similarity but a parallel case of available technology. I wasn’t referring to the actual engineering or technical functioning of the device, but to its availability and lack of proliferation in the marketplace.

Electricity technology that has been around for 40 years, and has not proliferated into the retail-residential and into restaurant operations marketplace . . . . doesn’t have a value to consumers. The hot water devices DID have a value (while working in a completely different fashion physically :wink: ) in the marketplace and have proliferated.

16

Re: Here is a nice invention that decreases your electric bi

Rinnai is a Japanese company, and they do not use hot water heaters in Japan. Every house has an on demand water heater like the rinnai unit. They have the benefit of a huge market already, and are selling equipment that they already perfected (although they did kill a few people in 2006 due to poor venting).

Those inverters on the other hand have been around for quite a bit, and are like snake oil and network marketing. The people who use and sell them preach about them all over the place, but in reality the only ones making any money off these inventions are the company selling them.

17

Re: Here is a nice invention that decreases your electric bi

Very interesting. My understanding is that unless you are billed by the volt amp this item is not going to help you at all.

18

Re: Here is a nice invention that decreases your electric bi

Pizza of the month - Just wondering what your savings results have been?

19

Re: Here is a nice invention that decreases your electric bi

dang nick all those fancy words got my head spinnin :shock:

20

Re: Here is a nice invention that decreases your electric bi

I haven’t installed one yet. I am waiting to see if my Uncle’s is saving him money for at least 6 months.