Hello Sir,

I would like to propse for discussion and welcome your thoughts on the subject of poor quality flour as a contributing factor that produces the ‘gum line’.

Please see the following website for refernce: (see Contents #44.)


Specifically the Amylase content in the wheat flour.

Please see the Flour section of:



Anyone care enough to wiegh in on this subject ???

Like I posted this so that I could reply to my own posts. Real nice.

Generally folks that can be identified as “real people” get better responses than those folks who tend to remain “annonymous” with little or no details in their profiles…

And Tom Lehmann does this forum on his other time while working his buttocks off in his regular job, and writing for PMQ. Cut the guy a little slack when you come to a free and open forum asking for someone’s own time and resources.

Your topic came in on the busiest weekend I’ve had to date, and isn’t something I much want to delve into. I don’t want to read two more websites, don’t have lots to offer the topic in expertise or insights . . . and really had no idea what you were driving at for your opening post. Crappy flour produces crappy dough . . . is that the premise? What makes it poor quality, and who gets to decide? What ovens are we using as base test models? Whose recipe? My insight is that one develops the recipe to meet the variables in play to wit: the actual flour, oven model, mixer used, sauce formulation, bake time/temp, and desired final crust characteristics.

The right recipe with the right flour should produce the final bake you desire. It will take some testing and adjusting, but it should work fine in theory according to my limited knowledge.

hey friend, people that have nothing nice to say should say nothing at all.

Thanks for the reply, but then I wonder if you admittedly “had no idea what I was driving at for my opening post”, why bother entering a discussion in which you know little about?

wow, I can’t believe more people are not jumping in to help you out . . .

Right. Thanks for nothing buddy. Why do some people feel the need to offer useless criticism, especially when they have nothing positive to contribute?


How 'bout dem Braves? BTW, saw that you post over at the Pizza Today forum too. I just found that place for the first time. Pretty familiar ground mostly. congrats on your busy week! We are at the other end of the scale, May is the slowest month of the year. The entire month is equal to half of Christmas week our biggest week).


I followed those links on flour. I got more than a little lost. I really don’t think the reference to “quality” is usefull. Different flours have different properties and make-up and different best uses. I have never really gotten into a bunch of additives and just use a high gluten product to begin with and honey rather than malt. I would not say that the flours that do not work well for pizza are poor quality, just poorly suited.

Poor quality flour is a definate factor but why would you get a poor quality flour? There are grading standards in place that should get you near the same quality of flour for each bag of a specific brand or line of flour. If you are getting sub-standard flour you should be contacting the supplier in order to get the problem corrected.

why does it seem like were back to the guy that bought his first delco? these people arent loooking for help there looking for an arguement. thety ask a question and no matter the reply they start an arguement.

Please don’t feed the trolls!!!

Thanks to the couple of honest replies. Was trying to make a serious discussion. Don’t know why the rest even bother.

Mr. Lehmann, in his past references to the causes of the ‘gum line’, to my knowledge has yet to address the factor of poor quality flour.

(Please correct me if I’m wrong.)

This should be a no-brainer, using sub-par products, but even generic brand food suppliers (eg. GFS) may result in the issue of which I am speaking.

In my first post, I provided a couple of invaluable resources for those who wish to understand the science and nature of their dough problems, and was very interested to hear Mr. Lehmann’s comments.

It seems that is what people were doing, and it made you angry :?

Braves will figure it out when Smoltz gets to the 'pen and rights that part of the ship.

Nothing better to do and hated to see someone whine on a professional volunteer forum :shock:

There you go. You had your answer before even ask it. Your wish if granted . . . long live Giambi!
Enjoy that chirping cricket noise you will begin to here.

Nick, it is looking as if you are using this forum to feed your ego.

Why do you continue to engage in a discussion of which you have nothing positive to contribute? Need attention?

ad hominum is pedestrian and not flattering to the user.

[do over] [/do over]

Know your ingredients, its constituent properties, and work your formula with what you have. If you substitute a different flour into an existing formula, you will get unsatisfactory results in many cases, regardless of whether you call it inferior or inferior. Top grade whole wheat flour will not work in a formula for AP flour. Top Grade pizza flour (like All Trumps) subbed into a formula developed for general use AP flour will yield a different crust. In both cases, the absorption rate and potential yeast load will need to be adjusted . . . along with reviewing bake time and temp. then there is reviewing the specific gravity of the sauce. What is the point of the question aske3d, beyond these issues. Know your ingredients and your formula.

If I am a total moron on this issue, I feel sure that Dave or one of the actual dough wizards will administer and appropriate smack down.


The origingal question was posted to Mr.Lehann, directly pertainging to the science of the Amaylse content in the wheat flour.

In one of your earlier replies, you commented that you had little expertise on this subject.

It seems to me as if I had said the same thing, I would excuse myself from the conversation for further risk of embarassing myself.

And if any one of the other moderators would like to give me the ‘smack down’, I would surely welcome it, as I was looking for a knowledgable discussion, not name calling.

Hey Goat,

I guess that you may be new to internet forums and the ways people interact on them. Personal messages are sent via PM or email (if available). Items posted on an open forum, even if addressed to an individual, are open topics. The invitation to participate is implied.

Another common practice in forum life is that newbies lurk for a while and then introduce themselves. Often that intro comes in the form of a question, but whatever the form, that intro is the first impression that the community has of the new member… and community it is. As a pretty new “face” around here myself, I can tell you that Nick is an established and valued member of this little corner of the internet world and one whose contributions have been valuable to many of us.

This is a very lightly moderated forum as forums go. In fact, I have not seen any examples of the mods stepping into anything at all so I would guess you will not see the “smack down” you invited. If you stick around, I think you will find that this is a pretty welcoming and helpful place.

Want to try again?

Flour that has a high amylase content (Falling Number below 150) will produce a sticky dough characteristic that cannot be corrected. It may also produce a finished crust having soft, gummy eating properties, which might be confused with a gum line, but is distinctly different in that the characteristic extends throughout the entire crumb portion of the baked crust, rather than being limited to just that area directly under the sauce, as is common t a gum line. This is a common feature of flour that is made from sprouted wheat, and this is the reason why sprouted wheat has essentially no value to the flour miller. Flour that is made with high level of damaged starch though, will exhibit a very high affinity for water, and if this is not met by the dough absorption (the water added to the dough) it is entirely possible that the dough COULD pull water from the sauce, thus setting the stage for the development of a gum line.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor