does anyone know if there is a way to convert these ovens to make them a little more effecient like the new ones?
If I remeber the new ones just have a sensor that shuts off the valves during slow times…just keeping the pilot lit!
We turn ours off after lunch. They only take a few minutes to come up to temp anyway so turning them off at 1:30 works. Often they can stay off for a couple of hours. If we get an order in the mean time, we fire them up again.
Here’s something Marcus from PESI is pushing. I guess it makes sense.
i do the same,turn off after lunch,bacon at 4:30,after rush,turn temp down to 300,get an order it only takes 2 mins to reach
500(mm 360)
Hi Redbarn"
The modulating Gas valve mentioned in this thread is only one of the differences that make the newer ovens 30% or better more efficient than older models. In addition to that valve the newer ovens use gas burners that are vastly more efficient. Old burners burn only about 80% of the gas used, new ovens have burners that burn 98% of the gas you pay for. New ovens are certified to operate with out a flue / exhaust pipe. Close to 10 % of the heat created in the older ovens goes out the flue pipe and never bakes anything. Most of the newer ovens have a much more efficient air flow which improves bake tines which reduces cost per pizza produced.
XLT ovens operate the blowers, conveyor and other electrical components with 120 volt power rather than 220 volt that cuts oven electric cost by $500.00 to $700.00 per deck over older and some new ovens.
George Mills
Does this really save on gas ?
I was told once that the gas used to get the oven back up to temp would equal the amount of gas saved by having it turned down. I like the idea, but I’d like to know if 1) it really saves gas and 2) is there any way that doing this can cause excessive wear and tear.
Thanks for you help.
I asked Micheal French of MF&B Restaurant Systems, Inc. whether turning our oven off/down during slow times will actually help save gas. I thought you guys might like to read his response.
“Using information we studied in the development of our new oven the EDGE40 we concluded that leaving the oven on is often the best value and quality. The variables of how long the oven was off, how long the oven was running before shutting off or dropping the temperature, what temperature did it go down to, How long did you leave it run after it reached its 500 deg mark, and did it get turned back on and then shut right of, are limit less. In the development of our oven we concluded that leaving the oven at its set temperature in some cases used more gas, but turning it off and turning it back on,if performed by an employee, could often alter the bake of your product because the oven had not reached a set common internal temperature every time. The quality of the product is at stake when playing with gas consumption and the savings is usually not worth it.”
“I hope this information has helped. We have put a lot of time in the development of our new ovens to help find ways to be more efficient. We have used an optional modulating burner that is an industry first to modulate both gas and combustion air. Our tests show this is a real world savings of about 25% compared to similar models.”
We got our ovens from these guys and they were great. Our refurbished mm360 came in looking like, and running like a brand new oven. They deliver all over the country. If you are looking for ovens give them a call.
Michael French
MF&B Restaurant Systems, Inc.
133 ICMI Road
Dunbar, PA 15431
724-628-3050
And lets not forget that with the “new” more efficient air impingement ovens, the finger inserts have been modified too for better, more uniform air distribution, and in some cases the blower has been modified too as part of the improved airflow. Overall, they are a somewhat different breed, that’s why I have seperated them from the “run of the mill” ovens. Thus far I have personally used the Lincoln FastBake, the new PESI-3240, and the XLT, and I can attest to the fact that these ovens are a significant step above the “norm”. There is also the Middleby-Marshall WoW oven, but I can’t say anything about it as I’ve not had any opportunity to wring one out yet.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor
Has anyone here tried the modulating Gas valve the PESI is pushing to see if it really does save on cost? New ovens would be great but I don’t know many that can justify the cost even if it does save you as much as 30% which would be about $125.00 a month in my case.
As noted previously
The modulating Gas valve mentioned in this thread is only one of the differences that make the newer ovens 30% or better more efficient than older models. In addition to that valve the newer ovens use gas burners that are vastly more efficient. Old burners burn only about 80% of the gas used, new ovens have burners that burn 98% of the gas you pay for. New ovens are certified to operate with out a flue / exhaust pipe. Close to 10 % of the heat created in the older ovens goes out the flue pipe and never bakes anything. Most of the newer ovens have a much more efficient air flow which improves bake tines which reduces cost per pizza produced.
XLT ovens operate the blowers, conveyor and other electrical components with 120 volt power rather than 220 volt that cuts oven electric cost by $500.00 to $700.00 per deck over older and some new ovens.
George Mills
I wrote a review of this oven which, I tested at this last years Orlando Pizza Show (September 2007). Check with Liz Barrett to see if/wherer the article is located.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor
P.S.
It does appear to be more economical to operate, and at less than $10,000.00 a pop, it’s the cheapest air impoingement oven going.
TDD
George,
Which gas burner burns 80% instead of the new style that burns 98%? Did Wayne change something? Where did you get this numbers from?
Also you keep referring to running at 110 Volt is more efficient than running at 220 Volt. I supose this is why Europe and most places outside of the U.S. run on 240 Volt to waste energy. It is about the wattage used…
Pizza guy asks: Which gas burner burns 80% instead of the new style that burns 98%? Did Wayne change something? Where did you get this numbers from?
The information comes from Wayne burner. I do not recall the exact date they began shipping the mew more efficient burners. Note that the newer oven do not have a flue pipe, that is due to the efficiency of the burners there is little unburned gas so no flue is needed. Wayne will soon be shipping burners that are even more efficient . See post by TD_VP above.
Note quote from Tom Lehmann: “The new, XLT as well as the other new, generation air impingement ovens that I referred to are totally different from earlier ovens of the same design. These ovens have modified burners, controls, baffling/air flow characteristics to make them more efficient and cheaper to operate.”
Pizza Guy: Also you keep referring to running at 110 Volt is more efficient than running at 220 Volt. I suppose this is why Europe and most places outside of the U.S. run on 240 Volt to waste energy. It is about the wattage used…
GM: If you will note I make that statement in comparing Middleby Ovens to the newer ovens on the market specifically the PS 360, PS 570, PS 555 note below your chart posted on another thread.
PS 360 - 208-240 V at 8 Amps=1920 Watts per hour
XLT 3255 120 V at 6 Amps= 720 Watts per hour .)
Lincoln 1450 120 V at 7 Amps= 840 Watts per hour
Pro Series PS 3255 120 V at 14 Amps=1680 per hour
Watts per hour is what you pay for, ergo the XLT is less costly to operate than the Middleby, as well as the other ovens listed.
European voltage is as you note higher and a different cycle. Why I do not know except that appears to be what they started with.
George mills
George,
I have met with Don Cox; the Head Engineering for Wayne Combustion and we discussed the various burners available and their new release of having a variable draft induction air supply. Don would agree with me that the burners from 20 years ago to present a primarily the same. There might be a flame spreader here and there added to intensify the “heat to target” but the burn percentage is the same. The introduction of the modulating gas train is where the efficiency savings is.
The burner is calibrated by adjusting the baffle/choke plate adjusted to the draft induction motor. If you had the appropriate meter the following guidelines should be followed:
CO2 - Ideal world 12%, higher is better
CO - 800 max Lower is better; set for lowest and than see what CO2 results are
I personally have a patent filed on the Pro Series that intensifies the flame discharged from the burner. When we tested this in the lab we calculated that we were able to achieve approximately 5x’s the normal amount of heat that other present ovens in the field were not utilizing their potential.
Older ovens that utilized exhaust piping were at the time of certification; required by ANSI, AGA, or UL. With newer certification manufacturers have been able to eliminate this waste of heat. Many refurbishers(as Ron Wolfe; founder of BOFI/XLT) would “cap” off the exhaust pipe and contain this heat in the chamber. Original equipment manufacturers can not recommend this since they must follow the original certification, but refurbishers and owners of this equipment can modify equipment as they see fit to suit their operation/customer.
George, please don’t bring up this 110 Volt is better than 240 Volt unless you can prove your point. Utility bills are charged by Kilowatt.
2400 Watts is equivilent to 10 amps at 240 Volt or 21.82 amps at 110 Volt. It doesn’t matter on the voltage, it is the total Wattage used. The reason the XLT has lower Wattage used is because the CFM is lower or there is only 1 motor used(much like the Lincoln 1450 series), unless you have test results to prove me wrong. The real reason for the 110 Volt is convenience for adding a third oven; not having to run to extra “hot” legs.
As Tom quoted, air flow with temperature is what “cooks” product.
Hi pizza Guy :
GM: I am not a technician. I phoned the Wayne burner company several years back when Middleby began to advertise a 30 % reduction in operating cost. At that time I was told the old burners burned about 80 % of the gas and newest burners burned 98%. I had no way of coming up with those figures on my own. unfortunatly I do not recall who I spoke to. I will check on that again.
Note the statement by MF&B restaurant systems “We have used an optional modulating burner that is an industry first to modulate both gas and combustion air. Our tests show this is a real world savings of about 25% compared to similar models.”
The would appear to indicate a more efficient burning of gas if savings are achieved. As to wether this results in a greater % of gas being burned I do not know. I was told Wayne was developing even more efficient burners but did not know how efficient.
GM: Again I do not claim that 110 volt is better than 220 volt only that the 110 volt system on the newer ovens costs less to operate than the 220- 240 Volt system on the middleby. I am not an electrician and only am passing on information provided to me,
See below.
This is a chart provided to me by the Wolfe Electric CO. It did not transfer to this medium as a chart but the figures are the same
Energy Consumption Comparison between the Middleby PS360 and XLT-3255 These ovens have the same size baking chamber production is the same if done at the same time and temperature.
XLT-3255 single Gas fired oven.Electrical power for blower & belt Voltage: 120 VAC–Amperage: 6.0 Volts x Amps) = Watts: = 720
Middleby PS 360 single Gas fired oven.Electrical power for blowers and belt. Voltage: 240 VAC-Amperage: 8 (Volts x Amps) = Watts: = 1920
If a restaurant is open 12 hours per day for 360 days, that is 4,320 hours per year.
Watts/year:
XLT = 3,110,400 / 1000 = 3,110.4 KWH/year*
Watts/year:
MM PS360 = 8,294,400 / 1000 = 8294.4 KWH/year**
XLT per year electrical cost Year = $258.16
MM PS-360Year electricity consumption = $688.43
- We assumed a 12-hour day, and a 360-day year. ** The US national average cost for electricity is 8.3 cents per kilowatt-hour (KWh). A Watt is a measure of electrical power and equals volts times amps. A watt-hour is the number of watts used per hour. For example, if you used ten, 100-watt light bulbs for 1 hour, you used 1000 watts for 1 hour or 1 KWh.
The ps360 oven uses over 2 and 1/2 times the amount of electricity that the XLT3255 uses. Or, stated another way, the XLT3255 ovens are 266% more efficient electrically. This equates to an annual savings of $430.27 per oven. As electricity rates continue to increase, it is conceivable that annual savings will approach $500.00 per year per oven.
If the above is not correct let me know.
George Mills
Some days my poor head gets a little more of a workout than it can handle…But this is great information…