Need Help with an oven!!

Hi all!!!

I have recently started up a carryout only shop about 5 months ago renting out a space with pre existing equiptment including a 6 tray revolving oven. I was hoping to operate that oven for at least 12-15 months when I would upgrade the oven to a conveyor. I have alot of experiance with the MM 350 as I operated one of those for over 10 years. It was a bear to clean, and I wasn’t ever really happy with the bake, but they were workhorses. Good news is that busines is great even though all the marketing I’m doing is sign shakers and word of mouth, but the bad news is that the oven is no longer able to handle the capacity I need on my busier nights as I’m doing about 100 pies an hour. I’m also fighting consistancy issues. I would also like to start marketing with EDDM, but I want to get an oven in first. I opened the store with cash out of hand and I have no outstanding loans, but with my store being so new, I’m running into issues getting a new oven financed. The only option that I currently have found is a lease to own, but they are only willing to give me 15k for the oven, hood and build out.

I would prefer to put in a double stack Edge 60’s or XLT’s for the overall savings in utilities and warantee, but I think I’m going to have to settle for a used set of MM 360S ovens or if I can swing it, a set of MM 570’s. I did find a deal on a used set of 360’s with an eyebrow hood and parts and labor warantee for 90 days for $7100 delivered. Even using the 360’s I would see a drastic reduction in my gas bill as I’m paying over 1k a month for the revolving oven. I would really appreciate any opinions and I would welcome any insights.

Is there any other options that I should be looking at in my situation? Thanks!!

Patrick

A couple things to think about:

Any conversation I have ever had with an equipment leasing company revolved around new or professionally refurbished equipment. I very much doubt that a leasing company is going to finance used equipment unless it has been refurbished and is coming from a company that is well know for refurbishing equipment. The $7100 price tag would lead me to believe that these ovens will likely not fit into a category that they will loan money on. Not to mention the fact that you could probably borrow money cheaper from the local mobster than what the lease rate would likely work out to.

Edge Ovens sometimes take ovens in trade and I would guess that XLT might as well. Maybe it’s worth asking these companies if they have a stack that they can install with an agreed upon buyback price if you upgrade to a new stack of their ovens within a certain timeframe.

I had the same concerns, but the lease company (Marlin Financial) is ok with used as long as it comes from an equipment dealer and not a private individual. I have rebuilt several of these ovens in the past and I am very aware that I can expect to have to do some repairs on them at that price. The 90 day parts warantee makes me feel alot better as I can go through them with a fine tooth comb and make sure they are in top shape.

You are very correct with the interest rate as it comes out to be 16.5%, but I don’t see what other option that I have…

Patrick

If you’re doing 100 pie hours during your busy times now, a stack of 360’s is not likely to alleviate the bottleneck that you are expecting as you increase your marketing. I would look for any way to do better than a stack of 360’s for this volume. Especially leasing, where you commonly are not allowed to pay off early without paying the 16.5% interest for the entire contracted term. These are likely to be at max capacity from your first Friday night and you’ll have to keep paying for them even if your volume forces you to get a stack with more capacity. Only you know your cash flow situation but doing 100 pie hours I would imagine that cash flowing something should be a possibility. If you really want some capacity for cheap, find a stack of Lincoln x-2’s or Eflows. They’ll be cheap and will handle any volume you reach. I used them for quite a few years and was happy with their cook. They’re loud, hot and break down often but parts are all grainger and easy to install. I even have a stack in storage in Florida I’d sell CHEAP but i would have to see how complete they are. I know a gas valve was taken off one.

Hi Patrick:

Paul is correct. Our experience is that sales expand substantially with the addition of hi production conveyor ovens.

You should consider buying a double stack of ovens. They will give you the capacity to bake more than 200 pizzas per hour. You will have the option of adding another deck when sales require it.

The fact that you will need a hood prompts me to caution you that a properly designed ventilation system can save thousands per year in operating cost

George Mills

Update!!

I purchased a set of recently refurbished 360’s (at least I think they are as they look VERY clean and have modulating gas valves) for 3900 and a eyebrow hood for 1200. I have two different exhaust fans that I can use, but I’m not sure as to how the best way to go about it is. I have a 1500 CFM and a 4500 CFM fan. I also have two 5 ton AC units, one of which I’m not using as it only services a store room and office that I don’t use. What I would like to do is use the 1500 CFM fan and the unused AC to provide conditioned make up air, but I’m not sure 1500 CFM is going to be enough exhaust. The last time I set up a exhaust system for a MM 350, we used a 3500 CFM fan on a 9x5 class 2 hood over 20 years ago.

I completely agree with the comments on the volume issue and I’m sure I’ll have to upgrade them again in the future. The best part is that I was able to figure out a way to pay for it without using any financing.

Also, when did it become REQUIRED to have a full class 1 hood with fire suppression for these kind of ovens?

Has ANYBODY heard of a grease fire coming out of one of these ovens???

Pizza is not the only thing that can go through these ovens. I’ve used lincolns, and we ran wings, rib tips and chicken strips through ours as well, and occasionally cookies and such on slow nights. The rib tips got sent through in foil that we made up to basically be a boat to contain the grease and juices that came out of them. Occassionally a staff member would run pepperoni through on a foil wrapped screen to warm up for a salad, which made me nervous to the point that I would go over and shut the burner down on the oven until those came out the other side.

Question:, when did it become REQUIRED to have a full class 1 hood with fire suppression for these kind of ovens?

In the last about 4 or 5 years most all jurisdictions have been requiring class 1 hoods and any fire Marshall has always had the option of requiring fire protection .

We equip pizza shops all over the country and its now common place nation wide to require class 1 NFPA and NSF standard construction hoods and virtually every fire marshal is requiring fire protection systems.

I suggest you consult with you building and Health Departments as well as your Fire Marshall as to their ventilation requirements

In most jurisdictions the instillation of a hood system requires ventilation drawings and an air balance plan be submitted and in many jurisdictions said plans have to be stamped by a Civel Engineer or an Architect.

George Mills

I previously owned a franchise for 15 years and I’ve been out of the business for the last 8 years. I just thought it was a huge difference to go from a 9x5 class two hood which wasn’t even a grease filtered hood and using 3500 CFM for exhaust and a swamp cooler for make up to whats required today. George, do you think 1500 CFM for an eyebrow hood is enough and I would love to hear your thoughts on using a 5 ton HVAC to provide conditioned make up air so I can cool the air in the summer and heat the air coming in during the winter? My local city says doing that is acceptable and it seems like the best way to do it, but like I said, this is all new to me.

I’ve ensured that the eyebrow hood is UL listed and is a grease filtered class 1 hood. I also have a friend that does commercial fire suppression that will be installing that side of it and helping me with the cost. George, you are also correct in that they are requiring me to have a third party provide an air balance plan, but I can’t find anybody who knows for sure if the 1500 CFM exhaust will be enough. Thanks for everybody’s help!!!

Patrick

Hi Patrick:

You ask: George, you are also correct in that they are requiring me to have a third party provide an air balance plan, but I can’t find anybody who knows for sure if the 1500 CFM exhaust will be enough. Thanks for everybody’s help!!!

That depends on your local jurisdiction. Some will allow 1500 CFM exhaust others are requiring 3000 CFM some more depending on some hood measurements.

In many jurisdictions the distance from the outer edge of the hood from the lower conveyor belt is critical to the CFM to be extracted. Most require 30 in minimum some require less.

Your jurisdiction should have the answer to those questions.

The design of many of the eye brow hoods blocks access to the blower motors on the Upper oven. When you do the instillation consider that if blower motor service is required you will have to roll the oven out from the hood far enough to remove the end panel on the upper oven. Best you have a long enough flex gas hose to do that and still be able to run the oven for testing, And support the oven with some hanger straps from the roof .

As to using an air conditioner for make up air. We almost always use some portion of A/C for make up air.
It will be a good plan to use 10 ton of air conditioning. Many folks do not realize or take into consideration that the first 5 ton of A/C in a pizza shop usually just breaks even with the heat produced by the ovens and other equipment in the kitchen. You will need the additional 5 ton to cool the building and 12 would be better.
One thing with using A/C for make up air is that the blowers on the A/C have to blow all the time the hood fan is running even if the heating or cooling is not being called for.
Using A/C for make up air is only practical on certified low CFM hoods. Which for the ovens you are using would only be taking about 800 CFM out of the building. The reason for that is only 140 CFM per ton of A/C is normally allowed to be applied as make up air…
In your situation with 10 ton of A/C you would have 1400 CFM that could be considered make up air…
I would note that the type hood you intend to use takes no heat off the body of the oven and heats the surrounding area more than with a canopie type of hood.

George Mills

Hi patrick:
Int last memo thats support the hood not the oven.

George Mills

Thank you George!!! I would have never thought that I needed to support the hood through the ceiling, but it makes perfect sense so I can move the oven if I need to. My store currently has a 1500 cfm class 1 exhaust fan that i’m using for the 6 tray revolving oven and I’m using one of my 5 ton units for the make up air right now. I’m just hoping I can use the same set up with the new oven\hood to save on costs. I’ve got an email into my local mechanical inspector to make sure that the 1500 CFM fan will be adequate. The store currently has a bit of positive pressure as I can feel air escaping when I crack the front door. Is this optimal, or should is it best if I have it set up as close to neutral as possible?

Some positive pressure is good it keeps dust, dirt, and flying insects out of you building.
George Mills