Need to create a new dough formula. Have been using an old recipe created by someone else with a target protein of 12.5%. We add 8 to 8.5 qts water, 16 oz vegetable/soy oil & 8 to 8.5 oz yeast bags. Looks like the yeast bags are just salt & yeast (ADY). Wish I could be more specific.
Looking to make traditionaly American style crust and possibly add gluten for a thin crust spin-off.
How does one know what a good quality flour is? Good brands to look at? The Flour we use says the protein content is anywhere from 12% to 13%. Is this a common variable with flour? Not possible for it to be exact?
What is the effect of olive oil over vegetable/soy oil?
Our only experience is using ADY starting in warm water but notice a lot of you use the IDY. Not sure if the difference is in the process or one affects the quality/behaviour of the dough.
I am aware of the many recipes to look at on the site but want to make sure I am starting with the best/right ingredients.
I am partial to All Trumps, as it is a favorite with bread bakers…next is Superlative - both are from General Mills…
Olive oil will add a little extra flavor to the profile & helps lubricate the dough…I use a 25% blended oil…prefer that over straight olive (costly) or plain soy (bleah)
looks like you’re mixing 25# bags of flour so 8 oz of sugar, 6-10 oz of salt & .75-1.5 oz of IDY is about right…
Salt adds tenderness & flavor to the crust and the more salt the more it slows down the action in the yeast…
the colder the H20 the longer “cooler” life you’ll have w/the dough…
We use most of our dough 2 days after its made/proofer & make it w/cold H20
You’ve been watching too many Papa Johns commercials. “Better ingredients make better pizza” or something like that. Lets start with the flour. Any good reputable flour supplier will be able to sell you a quality flour. Your goal “grasshopper” is to make sure its the right flour for the type of pizza that you want to make. If you are looking towards a New York style pizza, go with a high protein contwent flour (13.5 to 14.5%) Think General Mills "Remarkable or “All Trumps” or their equivalent from another supplier. Your flour supplier may not know much about flour protein levels, but they do know a lot about their competions name brands. If you are leaning more towards a Domino’s type of crust with carry-out and delivery in your future, you might be better served by a lower protein flour (12 to 12.8%) so in this case you wil be looking for something like a General Mills “Full Strength” or “Superlative”. If you want to go the deep-dish, pan pizza route, look for something in the 11 to 12% protein range, which would be represented by General Mills “King Wheat” or “Harvest King”. If you go too high in protein with a deep-dish pizza you will most likely end up with an excessively tough and chewy pizza.
When it comes to oils, olive oil is great for the flavor it imparts to the finished crust. Vegetable oils (soy, corn, canola, sunflower, etc.) function in the same way as olive oil but they do not impart the great flavor, and they’re a lot cheaper too. If cost is an issue, make a blend of the two (80% vegetable oil and 20% olive oil) and you can get the best of both worlds. By the way, when buying olive oil for use in your dough, buy the lower cost types, such as pommace oil, the flavor is a lot more “robust” so it comes through much better in the finished crust.
The one place where you really have to watch out for quality is with your cheese. Buy a cheese that gives you what YOU want with regard to flavor and textural properties. Grande whole milk Mozzarella is an absolutely great cheese. Yes, it is expensive, but the quality is there. Is it the right cheese for you? Only you can answer that question. My personal advice is to find a cheese that works for you and stay with that brand. Your customers will appreciate it. If you will go back into the archived articles you will find some good articles on dough formulation and ingredient function the dough. In summary, you won’t find too masny really bad ingredients if you stay with the reputable suppliers, but you can certainly get the wrong ingredients for the type of pizza that you are wanting to make. That’s what we’re all about here at PMQ, helping you to make the right decisions.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor
What I want to do is a “traditional/American” style pizza. I assume when you say “Dominos type of crust” you mean the 12 to 13% flour will produce a dough that will hold up longer?
I am also considering doing a thin crust. Why is the higher protein flour better for this? Does it produce a crispier crust?
I am leaning towards Grande cheese as I want to produce a top quality pizza. What is the difference between whole & skim milk cheese? Is it a taste difference, performance difference or both? What is the effect of using a low moisture cheese?
Please for the sake of your customers, do not go for a dominos style crust. Their crust is bland, tasteless and just plain sux. The first step in a good pizza is the crust. Use only the best ingredients like All Trumps or King Arthur flour. also use olive oil, not veggie oil or a veggie/olive oil blend use real olive oil. THen you build the pizza from there.
Would not even consider doing a Domino’s type of pizza. I’m just trying to understand what the effect is of certain ingredients as they pertain to quality, taste and performance.
low-moisture cheese vs not low-moisture
effect of adding more or less water
extra protein does or does not effect crispiness of crust
experiment, and keep experimenting and find “your” dough
the way other people do it is of benifit for you to see,
some general things I have learned,
buy brand, dependable product, ie, generic flour the protein levels change and so does the quality,
make only one change at a time, ie water %
I add pomace olive oil, but only on liberally coating after sahping the individuai dough balls,
I use more salt, 2% and more water than mosr, 59% with GM Suprrlative,
I wish I could help you with a crust that would hold up longer (delivery/carry out, I assume) but I just can’t. Putting a fresh, hot pizza into a closed box, and then putting it into a moon bag is more than a crispy crust pizza can ctand up to. After a few minutes, that nice crispy crust gets steamed into a nice soft, chewy crust. This crust pizzas are typically made from the higher protein content flours for two reasons. 1) The higher protein content allows the dough to be stretched thinner without tearing, 2) the higher protein content contributes to a crispier crust characteristic than a lower protein flour, BUT this same protein, is responsible for the tough, chewy characteristic of a delivered pizza after it has been steamed in the delivery package. For this reason, you have to balance the protein content with your finished pizza characteristics as your customer see it. Since Domino’s is a delivery chain, they use a flour with sufficient protein content to give a crispy texture to the FRESH pizza (right from the oven) while not giving a pizza with all of the delectable eating characteristics of an old boot sole after it have been in the delivery systen for close to 30 minutes. Packaging has a much greater influence on crispiness. or should I say retention of crispiness, that the dough formulation. In my humble opinion, a ripple sheet or Dri-Pie sheet, with a well ventilated box, and an insulated delivery bag with a top panel made from Gore-Tex, or a similar material just might be the best we can hope for at the present time. Most people like the whole milk Mozzarella due to the rich flavor it imparts. Grande’s is also one that doesn’t oil out too. It really does have a lot going for it.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor
Tom, I was reading over on Correllconcepts, and it talked about olive oil and stated that pomace is odorless and tasteless. I just wanted to clarify if you meant pomace or something else. Thanks.
That sounds more like canola oil. The pomace oil is not cansidered to be as good as the virgin or extra virgin grade due to the stronger flavor, some actually describe it as being slightly bitter, but when used in the dough it is right at home as the flavor is somewhat diluted out and what remains is a robust olive oil flavor, and I think most would agree that that is OK in a crust. Save the good stuff for use as a dipping oil or put it on a salad with a little balsamic vinegar.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor
Not a problem. When you pick up a bottle or can of the stuff be sure to smell and taste it, then ask yourself how bland is it? Like I said, a little too stout for my likes when used all by itself, but in a dough the flavor it imparts is really good.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor
I own a pizzeria in upstate ny… i hve a ny style high gluten flour pizza. i get good crispiness on crust but like most steams away and becomes soft and chewy.
what is this ripple sheet or dri-pie sheet your talking about? also what does a gortex top on a delivery bag do?
thanks for the advice i really hope to get a pizza with a crispier crust
No, the Pomace oil has a more robust flavor than regular olive oil does. Snag a small bottle at your local supermarket to try. Commercially, you can buy it in 1-gallon tins.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor