Over Worked Dough characteristics

I was just wondering about all the talk I have seen on overworked dough.
I didn’t see a mention on the actual effects it has on the finished product, if any?
Obviously it forms gluten faster by working it vs fermentation process.
What are the pro’s and con’s between forming gluten from one method or other.
Thank You

This is a good question. I always wondered how long most pizza operators mix there dough for. Assuming it’s a 50lb bag of flour.

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Delayed Oil method, 50lbs. 5 minutes in speed 1

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So mix a few mins add oil and mix for another 5?

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Mix for about 90 seconds to two minutes. Probably depends on spiral hook (which we have) or Jhook. When the dough barely has any flour loose (or none at all) then add the oil. But don’t wait too long, you’ll have a mess on your hands

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I’m at about 17-18 minutes for my recipe in speed 1, 50lb batch in a 60q hobart… I’d be curious to know as well if there are ill effects… Granted my recipe is probably different, 5 and 18 minutes is a huge gap.

Do Not do anything untill Tom the dough doctor advises

I’m usually at 5 minutes then slowly start adding oil and go for 7 more minutes

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What kind of flour do you use and what’s your hydration?

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5 min, add oil, 4 more minutes, low speed, spiral mixer

90 seconds

VCM, 25 lbs, 2.5 minutes

I’ve never tried a batch in our VCM… does it work well?

I’m still curious about the ops question

When using a VCM we never found it necessary to mix more than about 75-seconds. Remember, when making pizza dough you are not trying to develop the gluten at the mixer as you would when making a bread dough, instead as pizza dough is best under developed, you just need to mix the dough long enough to get decent handling properties at the bench, this is the reason why we recommend mixing pizza dough JUST until it develops a smooth satiny appearance. Mixing the dough beyond this point will contribute to achieving a more bread like crumb structure in the finished crust and it will also go a long ways towards putting you on a first name basis with your local mixer repair man :frowning:
With a VCM you need to suspend whatever yeast you are using, even IDY, in a small portion of the water to achieve good dispersion during the short mixing period. Mix for about 15-seconds, add the oil and continue mixing to the 75-second mark (this time might be different for different flour or dough formulas).
When using a planetary mixer add the water first then add the salt and sugar (if used) into the water, no need to stir unless you’re bored and have nothing else to do. Then add the flour and the yeast on top of the flour (compressed yeast (CY) is just crumbled and added as it is, ADY must be pre-hydrated in a small portion of water at 100F and IDY is added dry) and the dough mixed at low speed just until you don’t see any dry flour in the bowl (DO NOT MIX MORE THAN THIS) now add the oil and mix for one additional minute in low speed, then mix in medium speed for 8 to 10-minutes and you should be done. Mixing at low speed is actually hard on a mixer (think of your mixer as a light bulb, it has a running life). If your mixer can’t easily mix your dough at anything faster than the slowest speed your dough is too large for your mixer. If your mixer is a 60-quart Hobart which is very common, the only ones that will mix 50-pounds of flour are the new Legacy or the P-660, if you have any one of the H-600 series of mixers you are better off keeping your doughs sized to not more than 40-pounds of flour weight. If you go back into my archived articles (In Lehmann’s Terms) you should be able to find an article that I wrote addressing this very issue a few years ago.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

My batches look satiny after about 5 minutes of mixing. I honestly don’t visually see a difference between 5 minutes and 15 minutes of mixing… I run 50lb batches, all on speed 1.

If the dough looks fine after 5 minutes, is it?

I’m confused because I’ve read in a few of your articles and posts about going for a smooth and satiny finish, which you mention is usually about 8-10 minutes on speed two, but 8-10 minutes on speed two seems like it would be the equivalent to 15-20 minutes on speed one, thus being about 10-15 minutes past what looks smooth and satiny.

Seeing others say 5 minutes on speed one makes me wonder even more if I have been wasting 10 minutes per batch and even possibly “over-mixing”…

Maybe I’ll try and pull a batch as soon as it turns satiny and see how it turns out…

I think what they mean is 5 minutes from when the oil has been added. For us it takes about 5 minutes for the dough to come together and have not have any dry flour left oil then gets added and then it is about another 5 to 8 minutes to finish mixing. We also only mix on speed 1.

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Sorry, I meant after the addition of oil at about 2 minutes

I have dealt with this recently. My mixer has 4 speeds. Basically cooks were making dough and mixing it on 1st speed for a good 15-18 minutes and barely developing gluten structure. It was basically moving the dough around. 1st speed is for mixing ingredients only. 2nd speed by design is for kneading the dough.
Mixing issues started when we switched to non bromated flour and the mixing inconsistency was much more evident on the final product.

You think? My Hobart manual says my dough (hydration, batch size) should be mixed at speed 1 only… maybe on other mixers speed 1 is different?