Herzberg’s theory is almost correct. People do stay at jobs in which they are respected, like their co-workers, etc. People have a sense of belongingness and comfort with status quo that allows for this. However when a better-paying job comes along, people often jump at the chance. After all, Herzberg doesn’t pay a person’s bills not does he help save for vacations.
If a company pays an above average wage and is not getting premium work from its employees, a problem either exists with management or the workers need to be replaced with ones who will appreciate the higher wage with premium service. NEVER should a wage be lowered to match the monkey-type work. You are punishing the “good” employees and are compromising the service your customers have grown dependent upon. Point of interest: this is exactly what businesses like the big 3 have done, and now they have sub-standard service (at least in this area from what I’ve seen and from what others tell me.)
“Best employee” is the crux of that last argment by the ineminable PPG2270. The thing is that the individual emploer is the final arbiter on what employee is “best” for his/her opperation. Ultimately, the bottom core of every argument that this gentleman had ever made in the forum regarding unfair compensation practices is that he and those who think like them are the sole authority capable of deciding what all pizzeria industry employers should pay employees . . . and for that matter, pricing the products and services their business sells. General availability of candidates, actual relative contribution to the business, relative cost center of delivery service, federal wage standards, gross income potential, marketplace wage dynamics, and overall balance of wages within the business are all dismissed as manipulation in order to mistreat delivery drivers. His own outrage and personal emotional history with his personal employers are dismissed as irrelavent to his position, as well as the apparent satisfaction and even utter joy of many, many who hold the same position. All these are asked to be set aside and disregarded in favor of his and only his viewpoint. Yes, there are some others who hold the same viewpoint . . . and they are likewise seen as expert in the matter. Decorum, respect for others who have insights, even a baseline of respect for those here who actually do and have owned businesses and taken all the riskes associated with that ownership . . . all mostly absent from his very emotional and often personal attacks on owners. Unless someone agrees with one of his points.
As you, PPG2270, have argued more than once . . . though never enough to actually accept it yourself . . . once an employee and employer agree on a wage, then it is their business and not your or my place to get involved. Yet we still enjoy the ongoing onslaught of various unsubstantiated arguments about marketplaces, labor principles and economic dynamics.
There is nothing “unsubstantiated” about fair wages and proper mileage compensation. In fact, I believe the argument is very substantiated.
The bottom line is that owners paying substandard wages will use any “trick” (i.e. “it’s legal” or “it’s necessary”) to defend paying such wages, and those owners not paying substandard wages will defend the rights of those who do. This forum is proof of that
Just saying it’s so is not substantiation. Having 2 hundred delivery employees agree isn’t substantiation. You really cannot substantiate your opinions with your own opinions. “Fair” wages is so insanely and emotional subjective that the only objective standard is federal law. It has been deomonstrated time and again that there is no federal requirement for your version of "proper mileage compensation. you cobble together IRS deduction guidelines with a patch job of Department of Labor reuirements and an obstreperous misrepresentation of compensation laws, then dabble in completely ignoring social, legal and marketplace definition of acceptable application of tip credits (and somehow claiming that general population somehow never learned that waitresses and tipped employees are paid less . . . guess they lived in caves??)
The “trick” of following the law has a long and storied history in our country. Unfortunately it is the standard of acceptable in legal discussions in a law made up of, well, laws and not personal opinions. Lots of ‘civilian’ editorial opinions don’t meet any sort of real standard of anything. They do create grist for rational debate and discussion, but don’t substantiate anyone’s stance at the end of it all, given that they are most often partisan and comepletely partial to a particular viewpoint.
The reality is that the perspective employee seeking a driver job choses voluntarily to apply. They know the score when they apply, and should do their due diligence to be sure they are protecting their best interests in the negotiation (like owners are taksed with doing for themselves), and have free will to walk away then or at any time after finding the situation unpaletable. In the absence of real, documentable violation of law or some other objectively definable and legally supportable standard, move on and let your own words stand . . . .no one should get between the free and honest agreement between employee and employer.
I do understand that will not happen as the handled chopping implement is still present to be laid to the stone.
PPG
You quote in the same context “it’s legal” or “it’s necessary”.
Maybe you should transfer your studies to Law and/or Fine English.
It cannot be one or the other, ONLY LEGAL. If there is a government ruling on minimum wages, whether we like it or not, and the laws cut both ways for employees and employers, then neither you or I nor anyone else can interpretet differently.
By saying “it’s necessary” - assuming this has categorically been quoted by an employer to an employee to pay less - is ILLEGAL, and if so the law should come hard on these type of operators who do not, or will not, pay the correct pay rates.
At times your posts trend to being correct then you let the emotional clap trap get in the way such as comments of “legal/necessary” you throw in. It seems that you like to hang your argument on the bad experiencee you had as a generalisation of the whole industry.
I held a grudge against an former employer who made me redundant and broke numerous employment laws doing so and sent me into an unemployment / unemployable spiral (aged over 50 !!!) and into depression. I finally saw the light and the futility of being a dog chasing it’s tail that it will never catch and moved on. My health improved dramatically, I could smell the roses again and I got off my ar$e and took out a loan against my house and got into a business and worked my ar$e off. Now I couldn’t give two hoots about the former employer and I have moved on. The work hard and hours long and I get less per hour than most of my employees, but the roses smell sweet.
Close that chapter in your life, lose the attitude, make a coffee and go out to the garden and smell the roses. IT HELPS !!!
When I say the choices are “it’s legal” or “it’s necessary” what I mean is that the second choice tends to come from the first…let me explain.
The point of “just because you CAN pay subminimum wages doesn’t mean you SHOULD” implies that everyone receiving tip credit wages knows it’s legal (or finds out that it is when challenging it.) So instead of an operator simply saying “I pay it because I can” or “I’m greedy” the words of choice become “it’s necessary for the successful operation of the shop.” An employee not wanting to lose his job would usually end the “fight” right there. However as a non-employee I would have to ask “is your business so bad that if you paid the minimum wage the store woud close? And if so what can be done to improve business to get to where employees could be paid better?” :idea:
It’s obvious that with a closed store no one makes money. Employees (who are paid decently) should be willing to go the extra mile to ensure that the business succeeds. For example, the last full-time driving job was a 5-day daylight shift for an indy. I had noticed that business orders during the lunch rush were not as plentiful as they used to be in previous years. So did I just say “oh well” and did more prep work? NO WAY! I took coupons (and in some cases, FOOD) to businesses that had stopped ordrering with the blessing of the owner/managers. I also did doorhanging (for exercise) occasionally on my day(s) off. This helped everyone’s bottom line. Yes it is true that when the store went submim I no longer felt appreciated nor had the gumption to go the extra mile. In fact I left a short time later. I just shook my head and said to myself “why bother?” That is the kind of bitterness that submin brings to established workers and ensures that new workers will not be as gung-ho as I was.
This position creates a completely false dichotomy, which is the basis, PPG, for a lot of the owner/employer disagreement with your logically flawed position. I am not saying you are dumb, but that there is a deep and unavoidable flaw in the foundation that shows up again in your last post.
Your bitterness over your personal experience with one or several employees, sa Dave also noticed, seems to greatly narrow either your perception or willingness to discuss the many other economic influences and dynamics involved in running a pizzeria and a delivery service inside that operation. Just paying one labor segment more to solve their perceived slight in very minimalist and lacking in broader understanding of the whole picture. The harsh realities are that pizza restaurants are generally lacking in market position flexibility that would allow “just paying drivers more”. Some can certainly pay more some are completely unable. But, when one segment gets paid more just because they squeak the wheel, then the rest become demanding of higher pay . . . because the driver already takes home more money then every other employee in the shop. Talking only wages and tips, because . . . you see . . . tips are a part of the delivery driver compensation, regardless of what person hands them the money.
The argument has been made (even by you if my memory seres correctly) that those in-house people took the job knowing what they were being paid, and they shouldn’t be haters when drivers make more. And then the same argument is dismissed when applied to drivers . . . . they know the wages and potentials going in, and need to accept. Then the argument wanders over to auto compensation, then back to “greedy” owners wanting to follow the law.
Ultimately, in your ongoing dialogue on this issue, any owner whose compensation policy disagrees with your very rigid and narrow position is labelled greedy and/or unethical. Everyone in all situations needs to switch to your way of how they should operate their business or be lumped in with incompetant, maniplative and seedy and whatever other words have been lobbed around.
Your whole manner of continuing the debate and speaking points over and over without variance or genuine discourse really provides profound evidence that the seed of all of this for you is personal bitterness and you projecting it out to the whole industry. See, Dave, I can still use waaaayyyyy to many words to make a point
You almost had me believing that my argument is simply out my bitterness. But then I saw the preceding hidden in your post, and I realized that despite my personal situation I do have some valid points, and here they are:
It doesn’t matter how much the other people in the shop make. If they want minimum wage PLUS tips, let them go out in their cars to the ghetto at 1AM and earn that tip.
Pre-1997, there was no “tips are part of the delivery driver compensation.” The shops paid minimum wage (or higher) WITH RAISES. Now tell me, other than the fact that tip credit was lobbied for and passed, what LOGICAL argument is there that such a pay model still could not work today? (And I can’t help it that the big 3 are charging 1980s prices for pies). I will pre-counter your argument by saying that if a shop cannot pay its drivers at least $7.25 per hour, something is wrong with that shop.
And Nick, I mean the following with the utmost respect as I have never owned (though I have managed) a shop:
How can someone with such a vast knowledge of business not have his business survive? There are others on here whom I cannot respect enough to ask such questions, but at this point you are still an exception. I guess the point I am getting at is: Do you believe that paying drivers full MW can actually bankrupt a shop? And if so, how?
Every time I have hammered a point that you simply cannot counter, you trot out my closed business. And never with any actual respect; really. I even had a PM conversation with someone predicting that would be your next response to me. The weakness you have in actrually, really understanding that these market realities and concepts exist is that you have never owned one and lived those realities. Even as a manager, it was not your livelihood and business that had to thrive or die. These are not really difficult concepts, and the do not vaporize sinply because you want it so.
1997 is irrelevant because today is 2012, and labor dynamics are 2012 dynamics. If you would like to work for a pre-1997 business, then I encourage you to seek one out.
Minimum wage plus tips for drivers . . . doesn’t exist in the current pizzeria industry. Not sure what point you were trying to make there. Whatever the point, I have already made explanation why it won’t happen in 2012. That has never been enough, and you continue to simply ignore the point, restating your question over and over. It is very clear you are not seeking an answer or an understanding. You want a fight and want to believe you are right. You will always pick the fight and will continue to seek out being right. You want the driver position to be the herculean hero of all businesses without which every one would wither and die. You won’t find agreement with that argument with any owner that I have ever met with . . . nor with any business instructor I have know, either.
So, all that said . . . I have a business for sale that has absolutely zero chance of surviving and making any sort of profit. I offer it to you, PPG2270 for $10. It has a 5 year lease, all equipment and it is ready to open within 30 days. You come down and show me how to run a profitable business with your business model in this marketplace. Be aware, though, that there is nearly a 25% vacancy rate of homes, 35% low rent/transient housing and no other businesses open in the downtown district. There is no bank, no grocery store, no other restaurants, and no lunch traffic. I am sure an entrepreneur of your vast, cosmic skill can open this business and be profitable within easily 6 months.
I am mad. I just wrote a very long comment to ppg and then accidentally hit my back button and lost it all. Let me sum it up as I dont want to waste anymore time on the a$$ we know as Mr. Bill aka PPG.
Bill you know nothing about anything. You like to talk yourself up only to hear your own idiotic words. You have zero respect for anyone here and Nick for sure. You have zero real world experience on owning a business. Go get 100 degrees…we all dont care. You will achieve one thing in life…NOTHING! You are a loser. You are a bottom feeder that thinks they know it all but the real business people of the world know exactly who you are. Scum comes too mind! Now go complain and whine to whomever will listen to you. I look at people here on the TT…including myself and the literally thousands of posts that we do to help assist and make peoples problems easier to solve or at least point them in the right direction to get them by. Take a look at Mr. Bills…ppg’s posts. They are all self serving rants…blah blah blah…whine whine whine…etc…etc…etc. Bill…for such a smart man that you like to think you are… GO BLANK YOURSELF!!! :!:
Oh and by “BLANK” I mean pat yourself on the back…
24 hours left for the deal of the century on a can’t miss business deal. Surely you can swoop in and make gold on the 1st pizzeria you’ve ever owned. Sure, it has a little challenge to it, but mostly it was my lack of business acumen that led to its closing.
Fair disclosure, I should let you know that the USPS, 2 months after I closed, transferred all local delivery to the Post Office 10 miles away in the next county. The local PO only handles PO Boxes. In case that impacts your decision to unleash your pizza super powers on that little town. The key to success, though, will have to be broad and dynamic. You should include being a part of community building, providing a needed foodservice to local working families, providing memories to the children who come to your shop . . . . memories that will always be what they compare every pizza and pizza guy to for the rest of their lives, providing stable employment to a segment of your people who would be hard pressed to find employment anywhere else, involving yourself in the broader county and Chamber of Commerce as a mean of developing the market that really doesn’t exist right now, image building for the local community in the greater region. Those things will need to be part of the success definition in order for you to find the proposition a success.
We all know it was not practical when I offered . . . . but $10 for an all-equipped place is still a steal. No financials to wrangle or games to play. I am serious that I’d hand over every stick and page to the guy if he bought it. It would be a stark reality to try to build what we built, but alas, no put up.
It takes a profound courage and fortitude to stand up and take the risk. To put the whole tamale into the pot . . . confidence that you can and will make it work. Every owner who has ever built a business knows this feeling and transformation. Restaurant startups even moreso. Sure, if you have enough money to throw at it, you start off ahead. Even so, money does not assure success: Atlanta has cast off Emeril Legasse, Tom Collicio and several other big game restauratuers.
They and we all paid our admission fees and took our chances. Alas and anon . . . . Bill didn’t have the stones.
Other than your last comment, this just proves that some people are destined to be in the business. Nick, I don’t know your personal situation that caused you close, but I can tell that it’s in your blood to be a “pizza man.” A godd commuity relationship can do wonders. I’ve worked for shops with both good and bad community relations, and the ones with the good relations obviously do better.
I’ve decided that I will be opening a shop in the next 12 months. Superman’s Pizza? I think not, but only time will tell how it will go.
And yes, it if I cannot pay drivers at least MW I do not deserve to operate a shop.
Um, thanks for asking. I made an offer to rent a shop that went out of business a couple of years ago. The shop owner passed away, an no one in his family wanted to run it. The problem is that the store has been sitting idle for over two years, and a lot of work needs done. I went in once to get a general look at the equipment, and unfortunately much of it needs replaced. The ANSUL system is still in place and I believe the double deck oven is functional.
The negotiation currently is going back and forth because I will only rent the place for the price I offered if the building owner repairs the place.
I would offer to buy the building, but there are two apartments and a small (empty -former flower shop) storefront attached. I do not want to get into a landlord status.
