PPG I think the bottom line to this conversation is fairly simple. Every person will tip what they will. I do not believe for one minute that a delivery charge greatly impacts the amount a person tips. When I get a delivery of food items I look at the total and pay the bill. I then tip the driver $3-5 on average. More if the order is especially large. Do I base my tip off a percentage of the bill…no. The driver is not a server and taking care of my party of people at their establishment. They are dropping off a package. Bad weather might get them a bump… or being there really quickly. I cannot remember a time that I questioned a delivery fee.
Your arguement that the shop ALWAYS keeps the delivery fee is just stupid. Yes, some shops keep part to cover delivery overhead. Some give the driver it all. Some split it. Oh, and shops that provide cars and gas…etc… keep it all as they should. Just like you say raise the prices and offer free delivery… why not just pay the delivery drivers less per hour and let them keep the fees? It is all the same. Even if you were happy with the base pay of all your brothers on the road… you would still not be happy with some other factor. Delivery work is a tipped occupation. Some tip great…some so-so… and some do not! It is a balancing act and if you work for sub-min wages and bad tips in the ghetto with…and I quote you here… all the “homies” and risk getting shot, mugged, and raped on every run… that is your own stupid mistake. Get a better paying and safer job. You argue what high level of importance that a driver is too any business and people should not start as a driver but be promoted to this level… then getting into another line of work should be easy.
Why not take this fight too the big 3 where only a change in their pay policies will ever have the impact that you are looking for. You are not going to get the feds or states to remove tip-credit pay. The restaurant industry will not allow that one. Also, servers are for the most part not there for a career. They also make more than minimum wage when tips are included. You have to be a really bad server not too.
I think the real underlying issue here has nothing to do with anything but the idea that you and other drivers believe they should make high salaries for doing little work. Maybe if O-bomb-a makes a Pizza Delivery Driver Entitlement Fund… which he might as he wants to give to everyone out there… then maybe you will all get your six-figured salaries that I truly believe you think you deserve. In reality you drive a car and drop off a package. That is all you do! Get over yourselves as you are not the grease that keeps the wheels spinning. You are all replaceable as any employee within any business is. Except…the OWNER of a small business…and that is only true too a point. If you want to open your own place and pay the executive drivers high salaries and not charge delivery fees…. Chain the kitchen workers to the make line…etc… it is all your option to do so. Why not lead by example here! Go open your dream establishment…make sure that you advertise that your drivers are the best and highest paid in the world…and that you have free delivery…so remember to mandatorily tip 50% of the bill so they can afford the upkeep of their 65mpg BMW electric hybrids…etc…etc…etc. Then come back and share this dream of a business plan with the rest of us greedy pos business owners that only live to pocket that dang delivery fee from all of our drivers. I wish I had drivers so I could take a longer vacation this year!
Yes I am confident that my point of view will not change the business practies of anyone here as well. I have a word for that, which has already been discussed.
As long as customers believe that the delivery charge is a mandatory gratuity, tips will continue to suffer.
PPG your checks and checkmate are just as STUPID! Yes the delivery fee is collected as it needs too be. Now, if the driver gets mileage income then I am 100% sure that that money is deducted as a business expense well before any business income taxes are paid. All you are describing is bookkeeping practices…CHECK! Would you rather just have the customer be told to give the driver $2 for the delivery fee and not include it in the bill? I guarantee you that would lead to no other tips being received as you have now told the customer that the driver gets the fee. In their minds…oh… a mandatory tip! It does not matter if the driver gets the entire fee or none at all. The bottom line is still they make what they make and you need to fight your battle to advance delivery drivers with an audience that can affect your neverending rant that although you reference past experience of management in the industry…I feel you are lacking the real working knowledge of running a profitable business venture. In a perfect world everyone would be rich and have no headaches. In reality…99% of people out there have no real clue on the inner workings that need to take place to keep a business up and running. I wish you the best of luck in your venture…but move on… the same old comments that are leading nowhere here are really a waste of internet space. Why not make your feelings heard by the companies that practice like this and put yout time and effort into something that might produce an outcome you are looking for. :idea: :arrow: :!:
The customers know there is a cost to deliver to them so why not be honest with ALL your customers and charge for the products buy and services they utilize?
I’ll address this first. To some extent I agree with you. There is indeed a cost associated with delivery. That is probably where the agreement is going to end. Unless in the rare cases where the vehicles are owned by the store, the cost of delivery (in my experienced opinion) falls more on the driver than it does the store. The driver is the one who must recoup expenses. If the store’s mileage does not cover all expenses (as is often the case) then the driver must count on (often low) base wages and tips to cover money already spent on gas, etc.
Now before you jump down my throat and list the hundreds of ways the store has a cost burden associated with delivery, I will spell this out for you very neat and nice. Pizza delivery was obviously profitable before the invention of the delivery charge. If this wasn’t the case, such operations would not have survived. So if we truly wanted to be honest with the customer, we would tell them that the store found ways to charge them for services they were not previously charged for in order to keep menu prices lower while still maintaining profits.
I’d tell you what’s stupid but you may not be able TOO grasp the concept. Anyway telling the customer to give the driver the $2 would leave the realm of delivery charge and move into the area of mandatory gratuity. Since that may lead into legal conundrums we have to therefore stick to the original concept of delivery charge.
You say that the idea of the store always keeping the delivery charge is “stupid” but then go on to say that it doesn’t matter if the driver receives the charge or not. Preach those words at your next staff meeting and see what the reaction is.
A mileage “paid out” to a driver is exactly what it is - money taken from the GENERAL FUND of the store to pay a driver mileage. There is NO correlation between a specific delivery charge amount and the actual mileage for that delivery. To say “the driver receives $1.50 of the $2 charge” is not only incorrect but (again) leads to the belief that the fee is a tip. Let’s clear this once and for all: the mileage is not a tip, a bonus, or wages. It is a reimbursement for use of personal property at work. You CANNOT bill a customer for use of a personal vehicle by your staff. The delivery charge is (a bogus way of) the store offsetting the costs of its delivery operation. Therefore, the store always keeps the delivery charge. (Check)
PPG you are on too something here but I doubt you will agree with it. 20 years ago it was almost 100% free delivery. Why? Well, people paid around that same $10 for pizza that they expect today and they also tipped the driver. Today, thanks to the big guys endlessly at war with each other… and the only option is too pay sub-min wages and hope their drivers make enough off tips to survive. By undervalueing their own products and having extreme volume the only road for success, they have caused this problem themselves. The indie must charge for the delivery or lose money on the sale. The indie pays more for the product, the employee, the insurance, etc…than the big guys do. The indie tries to offer a better product at a fair price and to do so they must charge this fee. Yes some of the charge will help cover delivery overhead, and some will go to the driver to help offset their expenses. The problem is that pizza delivery will never have the reimbursement rates like company drivers or OTR drivers receive. It is an entry level job and I do not anticipate seeing a driver getting $0.50 per mile to bring a pizza. Now if every driver took advantage of the full ability to deduct expenses on their taxes I would think they could offset a lot of this potential income loss. The other side of this conversation is the number of delivery drivers that make a good living in a fairly easy job. I don’t want too hear about all the risks taken…etc…etc… because many people work in high risk jobs everyday and make little for their efforts. Society is what it is. Maybe put some effort into bettering the communities where these drivers are at risk? Maybe put more pressure on the gov to allow CWPs for drivers and also get the big companies on board with that one. There are many angles to go after this but I will say it again… it really is not the owners or members of the TT that you are working against. :!:
I want to note I wrote my last post before I read PPG’s post above mine. Now, read my last post and try to grasp it, as you put it… and comprehend what was said. Then read my last posting two or three times. Then…MOVE ON WITH YOUR LIFE! :idea:
Finally you are seeing things the way they are. I am truly honest with my customers I have totally changed my menu so there is no longer a discount for buying a second pizza. I have reduce the menu prices to reflect those changes and the delivery charge was increased to cover the cost of providing the service. I can honestly tell my customers they will only pay for the products and services they choose.
I own the vehicles my delivery drivers use to get my product to my customers. I charge a fee to cover those costs. My drivers make a very nice income with no worries about vehicle maintenance or gas prices. My customers no longer feel they are subsidizing other customers when they choose to pick up their order.
Just for fun, I asked my drivers how they felt about “Free Delivery.” They were all against it and were almost upset at me for considering it. In my store, they get the state minimum (8.50 plus 1.50 of every 2.00 delivery fee.) They also get to keep their tips. Average tip is a around 3.00. My driver tonight used her own car, made 10 deliveries and walked out with $51 cash. Since they make the same as everyone else, there are absolutely no excuses about “that’s not my job.” They need to be able to do everything in the store. In my neighborhood, there seem to be very few people who cut back on their tips due to the delivery fee. -this is just an observation and I have no way to prove either way due to the fact that I’ve never offered free delivery.
OK…lets look at this. I am guessing a 4-5 hour shift. So she made $51 in tips, including $15 in delivery fees, and her base pay of $34-42.50. So around $90 for the shift…or +/-$20 an hour. I would say that is on par with most drivers. Will they admit this…heII no! Pretty good money for a part-time job with minimal job skills and being able to leave all the headaches at work…nothing to take home except a pizza! So take out gas and vehicle costs… and you still have a very well paying job. Have them ask their friends that work for the $8.50 an hour at the local grocery store or mall. They work 4-5 hours. They make $30-35 after taxes and wait 2 weeks for that check. They still have a car payment and insurance and vehicle upkeep…and yes you will put more miles on a delivery car… but get a new car. High mpg’s, low maintenance, lower insurance costs, fixed monthly payments. Go lease yourself a prius or something. Get a 40 mpg CIvic or something. One thing that gets me more than anything is hearing about all these drivers that pay hundreds a month in vehicle costs…and then explain that their 17 year old 12mpg SUV or “Classic” broke down again. Needs brakes again. Trans went out…again. Come on… get a dependable car and move on. Put $50 a month into a car fund to cover oil changes, brakes, and tires…and you should do just fine. Also… you need to learn to budget your money and not party it all away…because like servers the cash in hand is spent fast. Oh, and move out of mom’s basement!
You are about as funny as a myocardial infarction (heart attack for the medically-termed challenged.) There should be no need for $50 per month into a car fund as mileage reimbursemnt should cover vehicle expenses (unless you mean the $50 should come from MR.) No driver should ever spend a penny of wages or tips on vehicle expenses, that is what MR is all about.
The dig about moving out of mom’s basement is really classy. :roll: This just shows that your arguments aren’t based on what is right for shops and drivers, it is about your classification of drivers as a subhuman species. Get over yourself.
And you don’t want to hear about conditions such as driving in the ghetto at 1AM? Too bad. The reason you (and others) don’t want to hear it is because you may have to wake up and consider that the job is worth more than what is being paid. I’m sure that will happen as soon as I look out the window and see monkeys and pigs flying.
Edit: You can also stop telling me to “get a life” or “leave” because it isn’t happening. I am not on your payroll; therefore you cannot “dismiss” me like one of your staff. I can talk shop (and would love to) but each time I see “the driver gets the delivery charge” or “drivers are not a valid part of business” I will call that person to task. Bet on it.
Hey Miles. You pay your drivers $1.50 per delivery as mileage reimbursement. Given the size of your delivery area, that may be a good thing or a bad thing. But that is not the issue. The issue is that you collect a $2 delivery charge per run. The driver receives a $1.50 MR independent of that delivery charge. The two do not correlate. So to say the drivers receives $1.50 of the $2 delivery charge is technically incorrect. The $2 is part of the store’s revenue (pre-paid outs) and the store would be responsible for taxes on that money (pre-paid out.) Since the driver cannot be taxed for reimbursement, the two do not correlate.
PPG.
The thing that you blatantly overlook is the fact that it costs more to dliver than any charge that is levied.
Miles is charging $2 and giving the driver $1.50 and pays then $8.50 per hour. If a delivery takes 15 minutes that is $2.125 in wages costs plus $1.50 to the driver for use of his car for a total of $3.625 minus the $2 charge for a net total cost to the store -$1.625. At 4 deliveries per hour the net loss is -$6.50 x 4 hour shift + -$26.00 x 3 drivers = -$104.00 per night.
Gee the store owners are greedy for charging for delivery.
PPG… learn to take a joke. Also, you would not be on my payroll. The $50 is not just to cover your work related car expenses but all car expenses…and you as a RESPONSIBLE ADULT should budget your income accordingly. I know you have been burned in the past and it is obvious you have serious issues with owners of any business that offers delivery. Hey, my last position…almost 300 happy campers. I did have a fleet of OTR drivers working for me…does that count as delivery drivers? They made a salary. Drove company owned trucks and didn’t pay for gas. I do not recall anyone ever getting a tip from a customer though. Oh and I would much rather be medically-termed challenged than challenged in other ways! :shock:
Just a side note: If you keep getting yourself so upset over things in life you will have that MI and that would be…well at least you will know what your doctor is talking about to you! :idea:
Also, do me a favor and yell upstairs too mom and tell her the mean business owners are not playing nice with you on the internet. I think she should take your PlayStation away too!
With all due respect it is my position that if a store/owner cannot pay an employee fairly based on menu pricing, there is a major problem with management and/or store volume. Any service offered should be “bottom lined.” If you cannot afford to offer the service…well, the options are limited to stop offering the service or hang the closed sign permanently.
BREAKING NEWS: CNN REPORTS THAT THANKS TO THE O-BOMB-A POLICIES AND PPG2270…APPROX 679,000 RESTAURANTS AND COMPANIES THAT USE TIP-CREDIT PAY HAVE CLOSED ALL OF A SUDDEN. THEY JUST HUNG UP THEIR CLOSED SIGNS! :shock:
IN OTHER NEWS…THANKS TO THE NEWLY 18 MILLION UNEMPLOYED PEOPLE…DEFLATION HAS TAKEN OVER THE COUNTRY AS UNEMPLOYMENT HITS ITS REAL NUMBER OF 37.2% AND IT NOW LOOKS LIKE HAVING A JOB THAT PAYS SUB-MIN / TIP -CREDIT PAY IS CONSIDERED A PREMIUM ON LADDERS.COM. THEY NO LONGER CATER TOO THE $100K GROUP OF EMPLOYEES…NEW WEBSITE JUST LAUNCHED: HAVECARWILLDRIVEFORSUBMINANDNOTIPS.GOV. NOTICE IT IS A DOT-GOV AS SOCIALISM HAS TAKEN HOLD AND THE WHITE HOUSE NOW FLYS PH AND DOM FLAGS ON THE ROOFTOP!!! PJ WAS TAKEN OUT IN A NUCLEAR TURF WAR AND NO LONGER IS A THREAT TO THE BIG 2!!! WADAVE INSISTS AUSTRAILIA WILL INVADE WITH 9" LARGE PIZZAS AND $50 AN HOUR FOR ALL DELIVERY DRIVERS…PLUS MILEAGE!!! 8)
No I do not have an issue with any business offering delivery, it is limited to the pizza business. In 1997 I made $5.15 as a driver with $1.00 per run mileage and an average of $2 per run in tips. In 2010 the numbers were the same save $1.25 per run mileage. It is insane. The stores, the politicians, and the NRA have failed pizza drivers by failing to realize that inflation affects them too.
I don’t really care if business owners are “playing nice” with me on the internet. It’s not about befriending you guys (obviously) but rather it is about my position on issues.
Sorry but I do not live with my mom nor does she live with me. I own (mortgage) my own home and have my very own fleet of three vehicles thank you very much. I also receive full medical benefits and employer-matched 401 (k) and I also have my own IRA. I will retire between the ages of 57-60. All this was made possible by my exit from the currently doomed profession of pizza delivery and my foray into education and obtaining my master’s degree. Hmm… come to think of it I probably do as good (if not better than) the average indie shop owner.
Note: just because I chose education and left the business does NOT mean that conditions should/will not improve for drivers. Call it my “side project.” :twisted:
