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Ansul System above my oven?

Rico

Rico

Active member
Hello everyone,

I was told that to meet the mechanical code of New York State that I would need a Type I hood over my conveyor oven. The mechanical code also states that all Type I hoods will require a fire suppression system. I posted the codes below

507.2 Where required. A Type I or Type II hood shall be installed at or above all commercial cooking appliances in accordance with Sections 507.2.1 and 507.2.2. Where any cooking appliance under a single hood requires a Type I hood, a Type I hood shall be installed. Where a Type II hood is required, a Type I or Type II hood shall be installed.
Code: 
507.2.1 Type I hoods. Type I hoods shall be installed where cooking appliances produce grease or smoke, such as occurs with griddles, fryers, broilers, oven, ranges and wok ranges.
SECTION 509 FIRE SUPPRESSION SYSTEMS

509.1 Where required. Commercial cooking appliances required by Section 507.2.1 to have a Type I hood shall be provided with an approved automatic fire suppression system complying with the Building Code of New York State and the Fire Code of New York State.

I have talked to Engineers, Architects, and people that have been installing hood systems in restaurants for over 30 years and they all say they’ve never heard of such a thing.

My questions are:

Has anyone come across this type of situation?
What did you do about it?
If you installed a fire suppression system above your ovens do you have any pictures so I have an idea of what it should look like?

Thank you in advance.
 
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I’m in NY also and I’m not sure they are talking about pizza ovens in that paragraph. I might be wrong but I don’t have an ansul system over our double stack BP’s. and have never had any issues with the fire inspector or anyone else. We have type 1 hoods with ansul system over the fryers and open burner stove though.
 
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BspaPizza:
I’m in NY also and I’m not sure they are talking about pizza ovens in that paragraph. I might be wrong but I don’t have an ansul system over our double stack BP’s. and have never had any issues with the fire inspector or anyone else. We have type 1 hoods with ansul system over the fryers and open burner stove though.
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I think it would be best to get a hold of the code and look at the definition of “oven” to see is this includes pizza ovens…
 
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I would dig deeper into this, because pizza oven do not produce 'Grease Laden Vapors"

the website for Alto-Shaam has some great info about codes for fire suppression if needed or not, and there is a specific temperature that is the threshold for creating grease laden vapors.

I had a zoning guy tell me my BBQ pit needed fire suppression, I won that argument with the help of the info found through Alto-Shaam’s research.
 
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I had to have one in VA. Pizza ovens do produce grease laden vapors, just not a large amount of them.
 
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VAScotty:
I had to have one in VA. Pizza ovens do produce grease laden vapors, just not a large amount of them.
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Through my experience from opening many restaurants for other people, and for myself. I have found that many of the inspectors, zoning people, & planning commission groups, simply do not know the laws/regulations that they are supposed to know.
Do not take their word as gospel, research the regulations as they are printed. And if you need to get clarifications from their superiors, have them cite the regulation they are working from, then read it as printed by yourself. You too may find that many of these so called “officials” are misapplying regulations, are making them up as they go along with nothing to back up their statements.

I could go into many situations which I have experienced where some official tells you one thing, yet what they say varies wildly from what is written in the regulations/laws.

I mainly operate as a BBQ restaurant, and I had an inspector try to force me to add a fire-suppression system to my solid-fuel BBQ pit, and tell me I needed the same for a WFO, yet he could not cite any specific regulation to back up his claims. I knew he was wrong, So through research, and the information shared by the fine folks at Alto-Shaam, I was able to prove him wrong by citing research done by Underwriters Laboratories at exactly what temperature “Grease Laden Vapors” become a fire hazard that requires an automated fire suppression system.

It is much more affordable and feasible to do some quick web research, than to install an expensive fire suppression system where one is not required.
 
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I looked in the code, it says if an oven produces grease laden vapors, it requires a fire suppression system. There is no qualifier for the amount produced. Now maybe you were able to convince your code official with this, but to imply that others didn’t do their homework too is silly.
 
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Cite;
And it took me less than 15 seconds to find this.
So to reiterate and back up my original statement, do not take the word of an inspector as being correct and truthful, do your own research, and many times you will find out that the inspector is patently wrong, or misinterpreted a code.

http://inspector911.com/do-pizza-ovens- … ession/319
So now the question is “Do pizza’s, when cooking produce grease vapors or smoke?”
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When this subject comes up toppings such as pepperoni, bacon, and sausage are said to be the potential cause of grease vapors. When you last inspected a pizza parlor was there an accumulation of grease in the hood (if there is one) and duct? The Chief Mechanical Inspector for the State of Michigan has reportedly told mechanical inspectors that pepperoni on pizza’s does not produce grease laden vapors so a Type 1 hood is not required which then would not require an automatic fire-extinguishing system in the hood and duct. Note that an exhaust hood and duct is required but not a Type 1.

If you found grease build up in a hood and duct at a restaurant that provides cooked pizza’s to their customers or if you are competing a plan review for a restaurant that says they only cook pizzas in their pizza ovens, it would be prudent to ask for a copy of their menu. Restaurants have been known to vary their menus to expand their business. What else are they running through the pizza oven and will those items produce grease laden vapors or smoke when cooked? Is a plate of lasagna run through the oven a problem or is it the hamburgers noted on their expanded menu the problem?

By themselves, pizza’s shouldn’t cause the need for a Type 1 hood with an automatic fire-extinguishing system but add a new food item to the menu and a fire-extinguishing system may now be needed. As well all know nothing ever stay the same.
 
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Again, the code says “Type 1 hoods shall be installed at or above all commercial cooking appliances and domestic cooking appliances used for commercial purposes that produce grease vapors”. Pizza ovens produce ‘grease laden vapors’, it’s just the blog you referenced doesn’t think they produce them enough to warrant them, in the state of Michigan.

You said go to the code, and you went to a blog. The letter of the code says they are required, common sense says they aren’t. If you can show me in the code where there is a threshold for how much grease needs to be produced, per the code, I’ll apologize.
 
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I believe that you are missing the entire point of my original post;

Just because your inspector may have told you that you need a type-1 hood, it may be false. Or it may simply be because you are doing more than just pizza in that “pizza oven”.

What I am trying to get across here is that one should never take what an inspector verbally states as the entire truth, or even what the actual mechanical code is, because it is commonly misinterpreted and misunderstood by many who are in a position of authority, and these misinterpretations can cause extra, unneeded expense to the detriment business owner.

I’ve been playing this regulatory chess game for over 30 years now, My most recent issue was with a recently changed state code where my inspector insisted that my type-1 hood make-up air must be tempered, (heated and cooled to match ambient temps) and that my short-cycle hood is no longer acceptable. Upon reading the code myself, I found that he omitted a very important sentence that read; “unless the untempered make-up air does not cause significant discomfort to people in the structure”
I’d love to have tempered make-up air, but I do not need it, and I do not want to spend the money for a total hood system replacement right now, it is less than 10 years old.

There is a federal code, then there are state codes, then on top of that there are codes that need to be met at the local level too, The states and smaller local governments can make codes more restrictive than they are at the federal level, but they cannot make them more lax.

So if the OP would like to share his geographical location, I would be more than happy to research what the written code is for his area, but I would also need to know if it is just pizza being baked, or if other food products on the menu will be run through that oven which could be the cause for the inspector requesting a Type-1 hood with suppression.

I am located in Wisconsin, in the county of Vilas. My state and county have adopted the federal codes with no significant changes, therefore I am not required to have fire-suppression in, on, or around my pizza oven(s) or for my Solid-fueled BBQ Pit (read; Wood-Fired BBQ) Mainly because of the fire-safe ratings by UL (Underwriters Laboratories) and CTL (consumer testing laboratories) and because I am cooking meats below the temperature threshold that is known to cause greases to vaporize and create significant a fire hazard. Now my fryers, broiler, and flat-top are all under the type-1 hood because the code requires that.

Looking at everything to date, and from the major pizza chains, if you are baking only pizza in an enclosed oven, a type-1 hood (meaning fire-suppression) is not required, it has been determined that a type-2 hood (with no fire-suppression) is adequate. Once you start baking items other than pizza (burgers, roasts, wings & such which are known to create flammable vaporized grease) then a type-1 hood is required.

For the record, my ovens are a triple stacked configuration of the “Sveba Dahlen classic pizza oven”(s), I have a simple eyebrow hood with no fan over the opening of the top deck, any smoke exits through the a stack on the roof with no fan.
 
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Just to update everyone. I ended up having to go with a Type I hood with a fire suppression system. There have been 7 restaurant fires in my area in the last 2 months so I believe that the inspector is playing it safe. The code says a Type I hood is required “where cooking appliances produce grease or smoke, such as occurs with griddles, fryers, broilers, oven, ranges and wok range” the building inspector just said your toppings are going to produce grease and smoke and you are putting them in a oven. Therefor he is requiring a Type I hood and where there is a Type I hood a fire suppression system shall be installed. He has not mentioned anything about the tempered air as of yet and hopefully does not but I do know about it only having to be tempered if it effects the working conditions of the employees.

Thanks for the help. I believe that the codes are going to be moving more and more in the direction of the Type I hoods above all conveyor ovens in the future, I’ll just be ahead of the game and just in case a fire does happen I should be covered.

Rico
 
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Hi Guys:

Lots of conversation on this subject.

It is a relatively recent requirement to provide fire protection over a pizza oven

We equip pizza shops throughout the nation. All the jurisdictions we encounter now require fire suppression over conveyor ovens. Conveyor ovens can cook anything that will pass through them , hamburgers ,chicken and any other grease producing item.

Its not what you intend to process it is what the oven is capable of doing that decides the question.

George Mills
 
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He has not mentioned anything about the tempered air as of yet and hopefully does not but I do know about it only having to be tempered if it effects the working conditions of the employees.

The code says all air exhausted from the restaurant most be returned into the building at no less than 60 degrees. There is no regulation concerning cooling incoming summer air over 60 degrees air but if you don’t you will be dumping red hot air off your roof into your kitchen during the summer.

George Mills
 
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