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Dough Problem Help needed

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Please can you help me. I am using this as a dough formula

5KG Protein mix flour
Salt 100g
Baking Soda 50g
Fresh Yeast 175 g
Sugar 152 g
Water 2 litres temperature 35c In the UK weather is cold so is the room where the dough is stored

Mixing time 15 mins at regular speed

The Pizza dough when used on the same day of making comes out nice and brown. When we use it on the 2nd day the edges has brown spots and the dough edges are much lighter. Texture of dough remains unaffected its still soft only problem is that it comes out spotty. Since I have opened 3 months ago only 1 person has complained. A few customers say that the taste is a bit bland. We could do with adding something to the dough to add a flavour to it. We use San Marzano tomato sauce (spiced ready mixed) I believe I can add to this sauce to make it taste great can anyone help here. Any advice feedback would be most appreciated. Thanks
I also want to add
 
first of all I wouldn’t use the dough more than one day, that really impacts its taste. try adding a little olive oil to give it more flavor. I don’t know the ration, but maybe the dough doctor could help with that.
 
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do u crosstack?.. after you cut the dough, do you cover after 90min?.. those are small things that can help out with that problem… also the temp of the dough can’t be over 85 degrees… if is higher than that the yeast starts to die and that will aftect the taste and texture of the dough… that can also cause the black spots on the crust after u cook the pizza… am I close to the solution Tom L??
 
What kind or yeast are you using? I use IDY and use only one ounce to one and a half ounces per 100lbs of flour. I know that its different with other types of yeast, but I don’t believe you should be using more yeast than salt or sugar.
 
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Raymir- I think the black spots you are referring to would be the oxidation of the yeast, but I don’t think that’s the problem in this case because he didn’t describe them as black spots.

Timurlame have you tried cutting down on the total mixing time at all? Try a batch at 8-10 minutes and see if you have the same results.
 
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RaymiR:
do u crosstack?.. after you cut the dough, do you cover after 90min?.. those are small things that can help out with that problem… also the temp of the dough can’t be over 85 degrees… if is higher than that the yeast starts to die and that will aftect the taste and texture of the dough… that can also cause the black spots on the crust after u cook the pizza… am I close to the solution Tom L??
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yeast doesn’t begin to die until 120 degrees F, the ideal temperature for leavening dough is 80 to 95 degrees. Salt inhibits the growth of yeast so it’s best not to add yeast to salted water.
 
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yeast doesn’t begin to die until 120 degrees F, the ideal temperature for leavening dough is 80 to 95 degrees. Salt inhibits the growth of yeast so it’s best not to add yeast to salted water.

Agreed. If anything add the yeast to sugared water. Although I think above 85 degrees is a bit excessive, it definitely doesn’t kill the yeast either.
For a past similar dough recipie I had I left it in an area of the store around 70 degrees before placing it in the cooler.
 
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Hi

Thank you very much for your speedy reply. When I have sheeted the dough and its gone in to the pans we immediately put them into the coldroom. The dough I use is called Hirondelle it is Fresh yeast and is stored in the coldroom and has a lifespan for no more than a month.
As for the flavour is concerned we do add Olive oil to the dough this is mixed in with the yeast, water and sugar. The salt is added to the flour in the mixer.
 
We do not cross stack and leave it at room temperature we send it straight to the coldroom. I will try this tomorrow and I will also reduce the temperature of the water. Many thanks for your help. The reason I increased the temperature of water as the room where the dough is prepared it was cold as the Weather in the UK is not consistent like your weather. You can get all four season in one day here. to combat this problem I have installed heating in that room where the dough is prepared.
 
Hi

Thank you for your speedy response. For example when we really get busy I will make a batch around 3pm today when I use this dough lets say 2 hours later the dough comes out nice and brown the edges are perfect it has risen well and the texture of the dough is nice and soft that dough is perfect its great to look at and eat. If I use this same dough tomorrow the dough when it comes out of the Lincoln impinger it comes out with brown spots and the rest of the edge is much lighter like an off white colour with brown spots and the dough looks half done However the dough is edible and texture is good. I just want consistency.
 
Hi

I mix the yeast in with water also adding the sugar and olive oil into the bucket and I mix it very thoroughly with a whisk untill I have worked the yeast in the water this will then be poured into the mixer and I make sure that the water does not have any contact with salt as I am aware that the salt will kill the yeast. What I am doing is that right?
 
salt doesn’t kill yeast, but it does slow down it’s growth. What I used to do when I made bread was mix the yeast into the water and whisk it vigorsly untill all the yeast is absorbed. I added all the other ingredients into the mixing bowl then added the water. Some bakers use distilled water because tap water contains traces of salt. If you want a little more flavor try adding a little garlic to your dough. I would definately not use the dough longer than a day. If you’re worried about waste, cut your recipe in half or reduce it by twenty five percent. If you need help with that let me know
 
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from what i am seeing,you are using a dough recipe that is going to "burn out"after 12 hours or so.lots of leavening agent,high sugar,high water temp,high finish dough temp for a held dough,if you want to hold your dough for the next day,reduce yeast lets say to 1.75 to 2% max of flour weight,reduce sugar to 1.5%like you said it is good in 2 to 5 hrs,this is a fast
rise recipe not good for long term fermentation,your dough is burning out,what is left is some water oil mix your yeast is acting on the next day,this is what is making the brown spots,it takes this action to create a protein matrix in flour to get crisp browning…i could go on and on.plain and simple,your recipe is not good for long term fermentation.but it sounds good for a lot of other applications,rolls,fresh bread,deep fried deserts,and a good fresh pizza with a raised edge
 
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you guys are right… I got my numbers confused… what I understand his problem Is that when he uses the dough the same day, pizzas come out perfect and if he uses it the next day the dough has brown spots… right?..

so I think is the way he is handling the dough, also I think he should cut back on the sugar just a drop… the reason I’m saying it is because I was expericing similar problems and that’s how I fixed it… better dough handling and cutting the sugar… the salt I left it the same becuase that’s what gives the flavor and the sugar is what feeds the yiest…right?.. hopefully u can figure out what the problem is … good luck…
 
Timurlame -

There have been a couple of great dough recipes posted in the past week by Patriot’s Pizza and Tom Lehman. If you go back one page or so and view any threads that say ?Lehman, or something about dough - I think you will find some very helpful information. Some of the threads even have recipes and dough management practices that would help you.

I agree with what you guys are saying. Your recipe is great for 2 hours after, but will not hold up well in the long term. We actually use our dough 2 and 3 days later without any problems (we generally try to only make enough for one day, but being so new sales have been all over the radar). I’ve heard of some operators that refuse to use dough until it has proofed for at least one day. It all depends on your recipe and dough management practices.

Bottom line, the recipe has to match up to your dough management practices. If you’re making dough just before a rush, then your recipe will work. If you’re making dough the night before or morning of, you will want to change some things like everyone is saying so that the dough will hold up better in the long term.

Good luck.
 
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using dough 2 hrs after its been mixed will not return a great product…you need to allow dough to mature and develop flavor over night…

I’ve used fresh yeast b4 but prefer IDY…we use cold water stored in the walk-in when making our dough…we designed it to be used no earlier than the next day & will last for 3-4 days easily…

CiCi’s pizza standards are to use the dough after waiting a min of 7 hrs and no more than 48…

you could make dough, like they do bread, allowing it to proof via “floor time” and punch it down several times…you’ll use more yeast and it will develop flavor, but will be useless the next day…

I prefer All Trumps flour from Gold Medal…50#…put 26-28# of cold water in the mixer, add the flour…add 12-16 oz of sugar, 8-12 oz of salt & 1.5-2.0 oz of IDY (Red Staf/Flieshman’s yeast)…mix for 2 minutes then add 2-4 cups olive oil blend & mix for 9-11 minutes longer…

you can play with the salt/sugar ratio…more sugar = for food for the yeast to eat & more salt slows down the proofing process…more sugar will make the crust brown quicker…more oil makes it easier to form…

we round ours & pop 'em into dough trays…we never cross stack…rarely do we use warmer water nor check the finished dough temp, as we use the cooler to proof our dough

at the start of the day, we check our stock & may pull out a batch to temper/proof for several hrs, then push it back…remember the bottom tray will proof quicker than the top…you might consider inverting the stack b4 you roll it back into the cooler…

we run 100-300 pies/day w/this method…we make 2-5 batches of dough/day (college town)
 
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I have now switched from fresh yeast to IDY. How much IDY should I be using for 11lb batch. Should the IDY be mixed in with water or added to the dough?.
 
if you are going to cool the dough & use it the next day, use approx. 1/2 - 3/4 oz. for 11# of flour…

there is no need to mix the yeast in the water…sprinkle it over the flour, BUT don’t add the oil until the dough has mixed for a 2 minutes…

if your going to make a modified CiCi’s/use it the same day, you will have to use warmer water and can increase the yeast to no more than .75 oz.

but why only 11#?
 
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The bland taste is due to the lack of salt in your dough formula. To 5 Kg. of flour weight you should be using 87.5 grams of salt. Your yeast is about twice of what it should be too, so maybe a reduction in yeast level is in order too. Since you are already having some lebvel of success with your dough I won’t suggest that you start all over with a different dough formula, but I would encourage you to look in the RECIPE BANK at some of the dough fromulas posted there. You might begin experimenting with one or more of them to see if you can come up with an improvement to what you are presently serving.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor
 
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i am wondering,why the baking soda,
does any body else use soda in their formula???
if so,what properties does this agent provide
 
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