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From workmates to competitors - Any small town advice?

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Missy_PMQ

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So, my husband’s work contract is ending in July and it’ll be “Adieu, Paris” for us. In my spare time I’ve been kicking around at the local bakery and they are so enthusiastic they have been teaching me a TON about French pastries and now bread making.

I started dreaming about opening my own French bakery in the Bay Area, California but I saw in this small town there just happens to already be a bakery one just like the one I was dreaming to open! (although they close early, at 3pm) I’m learning a lot at the bakery in Paris but I know I need some real, long-hours, practical work experience too.

I was thinking about seeking work at this “rival” French bakery and after gaining some experience, opening my own. But I don’t know how to approach our relationship. Should I tell her up front? I don’t want her thinking that I’m there to steal her secrets! On the other hand, I wouldn’t want her to invest a lot of time, patience and training in me and then realize it was my plan all along to leave her and open a competing store. :confused:

Anyone been through something like this?
 
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I am very involved with Rotary. We have what we call the “Four Way Test”
  1. Is it the Truth?
  2. Is is Fair to all concerned?
  3. Will it build Goodwill and create better Friendships?
  4. Will it be Beneficial to all concerned?
I think that if you know what you are planning you should tell them if you are wanting to work there. If you were planning to open somewhere outside their market I would feel differently about it, but then, so would they.

In thinking about how I would feel about it… if one of my long time employees went out on his own and opened a new place in town I would not be thrilled but that is life. If they opened one in the next town (10 miles) I would wish him or her well. If someone came to work for me for 6 months or a year and then opened in my town and I thought that that had been the plan all along I would be pissed. On the other hand if they applied for a job and told me what they were thinking, I might or might not hire them but since they had been upfront about it I would not have a problem with it.

As a person who lives in a small town, I can tell you that how you are perceived has everything to do with how you conduct yourself. In the long run, if you plan to live there this is key to your happiness being a part of that community. People leave employers and go out on their own all the time and other people get that. If you had worked there for some years and went to the next town and opened I don’t see people looking at that in a negative light. Knowing in advance that this what you are doing is a different story. Especially if you then open in the same small town.

You might find that they would love to have you come work there and then buy the business from them!

The good news? The Bay Area has lots of small towns. Live in one and drive over to the next! I used to live in Sebastopol and work in Santa Rosa for example.
 
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My first thought is - can your small town support 2 pastry shops? Are you doing this because there is a need that can be filled or do you just want to do it for yourself?

For example, in our area, there are basically just our pizza shop and a BBQ place. We are friendly with each other, not only because they are nice people, but also because there is enough business to go around. That being said, I wouldn’t start selling pulled pork sandwiches and I don’t believe they would start making pizzas, because the area doesn’t need more of it. When we bought the place, even though I wanted to open a restaurant for some time, we only did it because the area was being under-served. People had stopped coming to the pizza shop due to how it was being run so there was a need for a well run pizza place close by.

I guess that’s just the long way of asking, is there sufficient call for what you will be making? Can you reach people that they can’t, or are you just splitting the market in 2, thus hurting both of you? I would say if there is enough demand that it doesn’t hurt them too much, or if you specialize in something that they don’t sell, they would be ok with it. Competition only makes you stay on top of your game. But if they are just getting by, and you’re going to open up and take some of their customers away, possibly with their recipes and techniques, they would have a right to be mad. And as bodegahwy said, in a small town, your reputation can sink you in a hurry.

Also as bodegahwy said, they may be interested in someone to pass the torch to at some point and have you buy them out. Or might be looking for a partner. Maybe they would like to expand, but don’t have the resources or time to do it themselves. Another option could be to team up with a local restaurant and see if they would like you to make their desserts and bread. This could either be done in their kitchen or you could use a commissary.

But for me, it all comes down to whether it’s going to be a business or a hobby. If it’s a business, make sure there is demand. If it’s just a hobby that you enjoy, and there is nothing wrong with that at all, then maybe another avenue is best.
 
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I agree being honest up front is the best policy. Who knows maybe they are secretly wanting to sell their shop and here is why - I worked in bakeries in the NYC area, Austin Tx, and Brussels Belguim. I love the art of it but the sheer recipes one has to cover to fill a display case, the intensive labor and low return of $ on breads, makes it a labor of love. I remember starting the day breaking a case of eggs and going through a case of butter a day. It was hard work but the owners of the shops I worked in were very fair and appreciated a good worker but the daily requirments to keep a bakery top notch is intense that few people can endure for very long. I am not trying to discourage but encourage. There is a great need for great bakeries. Most towns have lost their longtime bakeries for these reasons. Good luck and follow your heart because it never steers you but right and beware of the head because it is full of confusion, fear, irrational. 🙂 Walter
 
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Thanks for the advice, everyone. First of all - it’s not 100% sure that we’ll be moving to California at all! So I may be jumping the gun here. We were supposed to hear back already on my husband’s job but not yet…

Anyhow, I love the idea of approaching a restaurant in town and offering to make their breads and pastries. I think that’s a great idea. Also, the idea of approaching the French bakery and just being really open and honest with them.

I’m not sure about the demand for pastries but I think there is still quite a bit. I read on Yelp (of all places) that there aren’t much pastries left by 11am and they close at 3. It’s a pity they close early because there’s really nothing better than bringing home a warm, crackling baguette to have with dinner.

Who knows, maybe they will be thrilled to meet someone who has real experience in a French bakery who can help them expand their hours?

Another factor for me to consider is that I want to start with a family soon and starting a family and starting a business are not things I would want to do at the same time!
 
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Good point. They may be stopping then because that’s all they feel like working for the day. I would say, if they are comfortable with you, they might be interested in a partner. Raising a family adds a whole new dimension to it that you would have to decide for yourself. Good luck!
 
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I think being honest is definately the way to go and it is up to them whether they will hire you or not. You should definately put a good amount of time between starting a family and starting a business. I can attest to this. In 2009 me and my husband then boyfriend started our first pizza shop with little experience and not so much money, he had another business and the time and was making good money so it supported the business for awhile. 6 months later we got pregnant (not planned but glad it happened) 4 months after that we got married, had baby summer of 2010, four months later got pregnant again (my husbands master plan), had baby #2 in summer of 2011. We got through it but looking back I have no clue how we did it. I can tell you though that the business did suffer even though we manged to make it work. By suffer I mean we just no longer had the time to put as much effort into as we did in the beginning and the first year or 2 as we all know are very crucial. The business did not grow as much as we wanted it to. Long story short it was VERY hard.
 
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There is a great need for great bakeries. Most towns have lost their longtime bakeries for these reasons. . 🙂 Walter
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I agree fully, but I am seeing the exact opposite in my unique area, we have had some spectacular bakeries in our little town, the tourists loved them, I loved them, and a few other people in the area who appreciated artisanal (Scratch) bakeries loved them too.
But the bulk of our local, year round residents seem to only purchase items with labels that have “Wonder” “Hostess” or “Sara Lee” on them.

In the last 10 years, I have seen no less than 4 bakeries open and close within the first 18 months here, quite sad actually since it is not mismanagement, or poor quality making them fail. It is purely the lack of local resident patronizing small business in this area. I believe that any new establishment that plans to be open all year here must serve liquor to be able to survive in this area.
 
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We have a bagel shop that is right next door to the supermarket that does OK. We have also had 3 retail bakeries and one commercial bakery open and close in the 16 years I have been here.
 
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gotrocks: The past 8 years I have lived in central OH. The remaining 50 have been spent growing up 6 miles from NYC, Brussels Belguim, Austin TX, SF Bay Area, and Sonoma County CA. My wife is from SF. All of the places except here in OH were great food centers where artisan was the norm. I learned and worked in this environment and coming here to the Midwest has been a real eye opener. We are use to what we are raised on and that is what is considered great food to us and it will always be the go to food. The food here is much different than anything I have encountered. We usually eat out 3-4 times a week but since coming here 8 years we eat out about 3-4 times a year. Most everything here comes direct off a Sysco truck and is canned/precooked… very depressing for us.

One has to be in a food center to run a successful artisan bakery. The quality of ingredients/skilled products demand an audience that will pay for this. Most non food center cities will not support artisan products unless they are dirt cheap and that is not possible to do and survive. People here often don’t know what a cannoli is and I have had to educate the community to a new kind of food that I call good old NY style pizza. They call Sicilian deep dish and when I say a cannoli is made with ricotta cheese they say no thank you so say it is like whip cream and cheese cake. That gets more to try it. I literally can’t give away my French baguettes (learned from a Parisian baker in Brussels) or my sourdough rounds (learned in SF). People will say - thank you but no thank you and these are people that are often 100 pounds or more overweight. They will buy Walmart French bread. It is a constant battle not to dumb down because my products rarely get an intense conversation going about them like they do in food centers or with foodies. No one watches as I toss pies like they do in food centers and food is more of a thing one has to do like fill up the gas tank. The average response when someone tries our pies after I ask is - it is good. That is it. I was raised getting into exciting conversations about the foods and watching how the pizzas are made is a big part of the experience. Here I could use the cheapest cheese, 1 hour dough, dough sheeter, docked, pan baked in a conveyor oven, and probably sell as many pizzas as I do using imported Parmigiano-Reggiano/sicilian oregano on the stalk from Italy, 36 hour fermented dough, EVOO, fresh basil, fresh sliced veggies, hand tossed, baked on 1960’s Blodgett deck ovens, home made sausage from my grandfathers recipe he brought from Italy in the 1920’s, etc… I have truly enjoyed living here but the food thing will never cease to amaze and depress me. As far as pizza goes I have trouble understanding it the way it is made here. We are heading back to a more cosmopolitan area because we are use to cultural diversity which means lots of great ethnic foods and that is essential to our makeups. Walter
 
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I won’t pretend that I don’t eat things that would make Walter cringe (heck, I grew up in the area), but I’m constantly getting ideas for processed, pre-packaged foods from my suppliers. When I say I’m pushing to make more things in-house, it’s like I have two heads. I went to my biggest supplier’s food show last year, I walked out after about 10 minutes. It was all just pre-made stuff. I just hate making the same thing that people can take from their own freezer and make just as easily themselves. I do have to use some of these, as I’m limited to only a pizza oven right now. When I get our grill/fryer installed, I plan to make my own wings/tenders, mozz sticks and poppers. It’s hard because the customers expect, and buy, these things. So I have to carry them. The worst for me is the hoagie patty. It’s just a frozen, processed meat/soy disk. In the overall scheme of things, it’s probably not that bad. But it’s really the only thing I can’t get behind the quality of. I cringe every time someone calls it a “steak sub”. I took it off the menu (along with many other frozen processed products) when we took over, but so many people asked for it, I brought it back.

I’m starting small. All my chicken for my chicken subs and specialty pizzas, we roast ourselves. We just started roasting our own turkey breast for subs and that has gone over well. We’re in the process for switching to fresh, pinched sausage. I want to start making my own roast beef soon. I still have a ways to go to get my ingredients where I want them. But, like Walter said, sometimes the public demand just isn’t there for better quality unfortunately. I just try to do my best to put out the best quality within the limitations I have at the moment.

Sorry, we seem to have sidetracked your subject Missy.
 
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Hey Home Town Pizza , no worries for the distraction. 🙂

I really want to try @smiling with hope’s pizza! Sounds delicious. And his French baguettes.

That’s too bad when the enthusiastic artisan restauranteur is met with a flat apathy from the community. Another reminder of how important knowing the customer is.

As for prepackaged, processed foods: At the bakery where I’m training, they meticulously craft all their puff pastry from scratch but then they use an instant mix with artificial color and flavor for the creams and mousses that go in them. Their pistachio flavor is a neon “mint chocolate chip” kind of green and tastes like cherry more than nuts.

If were to open a bakery and had to cut corners for time, I would want to do the opposite, spending more time and money on the fillings than the puff pastry which can actually be very good pre-done in a factory, frozen and thawed out. They pride themselves on using only fresh products but when some don’t sell (and they aren’t baked yet) they keep them in the freezer! Strange.

Smiling With Hope, where do you think you’ll move next?
 
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Hey Home Town Pizza , no worries for the distraction. 🙂

I really want to try @smiling with hope’s pizza! Sounds delicious. And his French baguettes.

That’s too bad when the enthusiastic artisan restauranteur is met with a flat apathy from the community. Another reminder of how important knowing the customer is.

As for prepackaged, processed foods: At the bakery where I’m training, they meticulously craft all their puff pastry from scratch but then they use an instant mix with artificial color and flavor for the creams and mousses that go in them. Their pistachio flavor is a neon “mint chocolate chip” kind of green and tastes like cherry more than nuts.

If were to open a bakery and had to cut corners for time, I would want to do the opposite, spending more time and money on the fillings than the puff pastry which can actually be very good pre-done in a factory, frozen and thawed out. They pride themselves on using only fresh products but when some don’t sell (and they aren’t baked yet) they keep them in the freezer! Strange.

Smiling With Hope, where do you think you’ll move next?
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Missy: Our next stop is Reno, NV, to open a small pizzeria (no bread most likely because it is too complicated with the deck ovens, temps, doughes, etc). The link to it is below my name with pictures of our pizzas. I will be at the Columbus pizza convention this weekend and want to thank PMQ in person for the wonderful artical on us and all your support. I didn’t intend to sidetrack the topic. I feel it is very important to set up in an area where people will support an artisan product. I lived in Sonoma County CA for 15 years and they do it big time. There is a great artisan bakery there -http://www.wildflourbread.com/
Walter
http://www.smilingwithhopepizza.com/

here are some photos of our baked goods I literally can’t give away to most people here.



 
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