Protecting Your Business

[daisy]

Ok, this may be a touchy topic, BUT I need to ask…Has anyone ever been robbed?? If so do you now carry a weapon in your business to protect yourself, your employees & your business?? Our business is truly in a rural area, luckily the police department is just less than 5 miles up the road, and they are extremely diligent at making their rounds and checking on us. We were robbed a few yrs back, so I went & took my cpl class, at the time we were told that we HAD to conceal our weapon, NOW I learn that we are allowed to open carry. Well just last night the party store next to me was robbed just as I was getting ready to close for the night, I am here mostly at night by myself for the last hour or two. So I guess what I’m trying to get at, even though 90% of all my customers know me, should I talk to them and get a feel about how they feel on me open carry in the restaurant? I would hate to feel that anyone one my customers feels threatened by that or is skittish

 

[Rick_G]

It is an individual choice, but I would refrain from open carry for two reasons.

1. Some will be put off by it. The most ardent supporter of gun rights will not be offended if they do not see a weapon. Anti people will be offended and sometimes scared off. I have a customer that orders about once a month. Every time I deliver to him he answers the door with a Ruger 9MM on his belt, my drivers all say the same when they go there. Even though he is a firearms instructor it is a little unnerving when you first see it and honestly it makes me wonder why he feels the need to have the weapon on his belt while watching American Idol in his living room.
2. Open carry in our environment will get flour and other debris in your weapon requiring frequent cleaning to ensure you do not get jams or misfeeds. Keep it under your shirt so the flour stays out of the mechanism.

I wish there were a way I could have my dogs in the shop at night while closing, they would be a great deterrent to criminals and could help with cleanup. :mrgreen:

 

[daisy]

Rick…
I agree, I just would hate to piss a customer off, becuase they see my weapon. I use to carry it on my back under my shirt, but me being small & the fact that its a 45, it was weighing my pants down so I stopped carring it. I would def. have my shirt over it, yes the flour & everything would def. have to be cleaned alot, & I would leave that job up to my husband, who already takes on that job, but with any small amount of it showing, I dont know , yeah it is a grey area, BUT Im really starting to get scared at night, we have had alot of robberies in one town east of me, and it is def. a high crime area. Just was wondering if I should at least talk to some of my customers first & get a feel on how they feel about it.

 

[system]

Daisy coming from a person with a CCW permit…and in a state where it really is not a CCW but a carry permit…so I can go open but NEVER have. I have three different options for carry depending upon atire. The smallest a Sig P232 in .380 and the largest a P229 SAS in .40. I have a P239 in .40 in the middle but will be selling the P232…maybe I just love the look of that one…all stainless…and selling my P239 for the new P224 once they have been out a bit longer. Sig screwed up with the problems of the 238 and although I have NEVER had a gun malfunction…a few bad ammo sits over the years at the range…but not the guns fault. Back to topic…you say you are small framed…I am 6’ and 227 pounds. You say you carry a .45? Also small of back paddle holster? I am also a big fan of the S&W small J-Frames… but I was curious as to what you carry? It is probably the J’s or a Glock would be my guess. My second ? is why a 45? If you are serious about weapons carry at work… you damn well better have the real training to go with it. Not just going to the range with whomever on the weekends. Statistcally you will freeze up looklng at a robber with a gun in your face. If he/she sees your open carry…and they are the real deal… I would take out my most obviolus obsticle first…that means shoot you before you can react! Yes they will know you armed since only the most stupid wAlk into a store that has not been “cased” before hand. You need two options here and all have major risks. Well…there is the best option for most… even armed robbers rarely shoot the people they rob unless they feel they have too…ie: you have gun too! I grew up a few miles from the Browns Chicken in Palatine, IL where 2 robbers came in at close and executed all 7 employees in the walk-in. It took 15 years to solve if I remember right…been a few years… but the mgr was said to carry… so who knows what really happened. Did he force the shooting over just money? Your options… if you really have been trained very well and put 500+ rounds a month or more into training… then carry. Now… a heavy 45? NO! You are either going to scare the robbers and they will run, they might freeze and wait for the police, they might attack with whatever is laying around…or you will have a gunfight at 1-3 meters. Your chances are best that no shots will be fired. That said…get a pocket pistol or something of that size. Very easy too hide… and you have 5-8 rounds of .380 to 9mm on hand. Having you display a weapon to a robber will probably stop 99% of all of them. Sorry but the other 1% dont care if you or they die and they dont have to carry or hide whatever they choose to use. Also your liability if that .45 gets heavy and you “put it under the counter” for a while and lets say your britest delivery driver just wants to hold it for a second while you step away… :shock:

 

[system]

OH…since I just lectured more than answered… since our state went through the easing of getting ccw’s 2 years ago…there was the initial backlash of gun haters that put signs stating no carry allowed…etc… those came down within a few month when they realized that the bad guys dont go and get carry permits…and yes there are a few good people that mean well but still should not have a permit anyhow…the real bottom line was 99.9% with permits carry and you will never know. All you have done by speking out against is lose customers. Personally…and this was a local topic for some time…if I the would be robber see a store that has a sign… “We ban guns” what does that tell you about the owner? Will they likely be armed or an easy target? You would be surprised at how many shops then had signs…“We support gun rights” or “Carry Laws”…its just like putting the fake ADT signs in your lawn and stickers on your home windows… scum looking to steal or rob will pass on anything that might make the situation harder…they go for easy and quick. Just the idea that you might be armed or have a great security system will deter most! No matter what…unless you live in an area where there is a lot of open carry… your going to scare and lose business if they see you openly with a firearm. They will ask…“Is it even safe to stop and pickup a pizza let alone dine-in?” If you insist and ARE TRAINED… dont let anyone else know. Your own employees shouldnt even see it if done correctly. One last thing…if you carry only so you can talk yourself up…no offense intended unless this is you… then you are in the percentage of people that get shot with their own weapons. I appologize if that is not you… I say good luck if it is!!!

 

[daisy]

Mike…I totally understand what your saying, The 45 is my husbands, we have a 9mm, but he feels that its just a pee shooter & that you really cant hit much with it. He said he is going to get the site adjusted for me so I can carry that instead of the 45. As far a someone picking up my weapon if I left it under the front counter, thats not an issue, becuase I only have 2 employees, besides myself, and they are family members. I so totaly remember about that shooting you talked about. Yeah Im just trying to get some input on how I should handle this, so I guess I just wont talk to any of my customers & just leave it hush hush that Im carrying. I do have a panic button located just below my register & I have ADT as a monitor company. I just am trying to get a grip on this whole thing happening again and right next door to me & I had no idea until I walked out to lock up & saw all the cops & K-9 unit there, just 30 minutes prior I had my back door open, I have a screen on it with 3 locking devices to keep anyone or anything out & I know that if someone wanted to come in the back door they could. Just really making me feel uneasy all over again. I was sick to my stomach & on edge for weeks when we got robbed

 

[Patriot_sPizza]

I carry…period…
My 2nd store was in a rougher part of town…
Latest store not so bad, but it has it’s share of issues…

NEVER leave a weapon unattended…either lock it up or carry…end of story!

Now I personally carry/conceal a Charter Arms .44 - and you might find this ‘holder’ also suited to you…I’ll look for the link, but you can fid it I’m sure…

Basically, it a belly band, that will hold a .45 over your ‘private parts’ if ya catch my drift…I believe it was designed for a male, but a female wearing pants/shorts might work quite well too…

It really doesn’t interfer with work duties and no one knows I carry…

Semper Fi!
3rd MAW, El Toro, CA

 

[Deacon_V]

I’m in the great Socialist State of Illinois…the last of the places on earth where only the criminal can “legally” carry!

I have a .45 in my place, but I don’t have it on my body simply because I’d have to take it off every single time I opened the door whether to make a bank run, or empty the trash.

The tone of your post reveals you have not a small amount of fear or concern for you safety. If things are as bad as they appear in your neighborhood then there are a few things I would recommend. 1) Stop closing alone. Simple…stop it. 2) Get training! It sounds as if your husband is the one trained in handgun use…if you intend to have one, carried or not, YOU have to be trained as well. A handgun in an untrained hand can only get you hurt when you freeze, flinch, or panic. 3) Equip yourself with the proper weapon. There are dozens of better arms for you other than the .45 you are using now. Get a “revolver”, not a semi. at least you won’t have it jamming when you fumble with the slide if you are confronted.

Good luck…this business is tough enough, we shouldn’t have to do it looking over your shoulder!

 

[Rick_G]

Yeah, I second what Deacon says about closing alone. Our employees all know that my wife is not to be left alone here at night period. No excuses! On the odd night that my wife and I are both gone, at least 2 people are to be here walking out together, preferable the entire crew walking out at once. We are not in a high crime area, but criminal activity has picked up since they built a Super Walmart behind us and some low income housing about a half mile away. The bad part is you don’t really know how many robberies and such have taken place in the parking lots in the area because you don’t see them on the news all the time. About a year ago there were two robberies of people in our shopping center parking lot and those of us on this end of the building did not hear about it for roughly two weeks. :shock: I heard about it just in idle conversation with an assistant manager from the grocery store while he was waiting for his lunch.

 

[system]

Ok just a couple of things and then I have to walk away from this one. First… Deacon, I too grew up in the wonderful world of IL “only criminals” can carry world. What BS! OH…and elected officials could get permits…go figure. Now draw the line between IL elected and criminals…apples to apples?

Now my real concern. Daisy…I do not put people down often but I am sorry but you scare me! FIrst, even my .380 which is just a cut down 9mm called a 9mm Kurz…with Cor-Bon +p or Glaser ammo will work just fine at these ranges. I have visegrips on my tongue right now because I really want to RANT MY A$$ OFF right now! :x GRRRR!!! Your husband’s comments make ZERO sense! Also…why do the sights need adjusted for you on a handgun from where they are for him? If the gun is sighted in correctly then why would they need adjusted for anyone? Please go get some real professional training!!! You saying it’s all good since only other workers are family means nothing! Your mindset on this and the other comments… again I hate saying it and apologize for doing it…but you scare the heII out of me and I fear you are the one that we would read about having either their own gun used against them or how many innocents hit by the .45’s flying by. I will take 8 of my “short 9’s” on target over your however many .45’s that I know will miss after maybe that first one is close but your ability to return to target with the amount of muzzle flip…damn girl… most cops miss 37% of their shots at 7 yards!!! They all pretty much carry .40 s&w or .357sig today…so not near the control issues of the .45! I will tell you again…and the same thing I tell my friends that show up with AR’s built out of crap parts and have enough accessories that all they really have is a paperweight! Stop wasting money on more guns or add-ons, (not specific too you)… buy a quality firearm AFTER you get some type of training and in my state…the required carry class DOES NOT REQUIRE A SHOOTING TEST!!! I am 100% for right to carry…but when they rewrote our law they left out the qualifying clause! You can get a 5 year permit…but only have to shoot to qualify for your renewal…WTF!

DAISY GO PAY SOMEONE OTHER THAN YOUR HUSBAND TO TEACH YOU HOW TO SHOOT AND WHAT TO CARRY. THEN START TO CARRY AFTER YOU HAVE A FEW THOUSAND ROUNDS INVESTED IN YOURS AND OUR LIVES!!!

 

[Patriot_sPizza]

Ditto to what QCMike has said…I was a trained in the Corps & shoot/compete in a special areana of one-handed shooting (from different distances & different pistols)…

It is quite different shooting at someone in real life, than at a target on a range with your husband around…

Personally, I thinkit best you not carry based on the thread…me? I’m the guy that wouldn’t pull out my weapon unless I know/will fire it…jes sayin…

 

[paul7979]

qcfmike:

in my state…the required carry class DOES NOT REQUIRE A SHOOTING TEST!!! I am 100% for right to carry…but when they rewrote our law they left out the qualifying clause! You can get a 5 year permit…but only have to shoot to qualify for your renewal…WTF!

Mike, here in Florida, The Gunshine State, my wife got her CCW without EVER firing a gun. No qualifying for renewals. She doesn’t carry a gun yet as she doesn’t feel comfortable with one, but she carries a taser.

Daisy, I recommend checking out the Wather PK380 which is one of the firearms I bought for my wife. It’s a great size, easily concealable but substantial enough to fill your grip and with the right ammo has plenty of knock down power.

Also, revisit the first couple sentences of your original post. You mention carrying a firearm to protect your business. While I am certainly not qualified to offer legal advice, protecting yourself and others will likely be seen as being within the bounds of the law, but protecting your business will likely land you behind bars. A firearms class should go a long way towards teaching you the laws and how to speak to the police if you should ever have to discharge your weapon.

 

[Penelope]

But more importantly what are your instructions to employees if the store gets robbed?
Mine all know to just hand over the money and not try to be a hero. If the people in back know what is going on, they are to leave the building immediately (but chances are they won’t know) and go next door and call 911. The safety of the employees should be your main concern.

I have to agree with what everyone is saying here, that is why my gun is in the safe at home.

 

[system]

Paul… the Walther ppk and my Sig P232 are almost twins. A little price difference and the sig uses all internal safetys so no thumb toggle to mess with. Both direct blowbacks and 7+1 rounds of 9mm kurz! I just love the look…all SS…aNd the Hogue grips fit so well. Best feeling gun I have ever owned. You also have no external safety to worry about and get a da/sa with decocking lever. Unless you are a 1911 lover then internal safety’s are the way to go. One less thing to worry about if REALLY NEEDED! Worth a look and some reading for those that carry or are thinking too!

Penelope is also 100% right. Do not be the hero! It is just money! Insurance covers loses. Going back to open carry…you might be arming the robbers and actually causing the shooting to begin with! Also the descrete image not the cowboy one needs toi exist. You dont want an employee yelling out “my mgr or boss has a gun” since then the now escalated robbery could become homocide!

Deacon put your prayer hat on for this one sooner than later. :roll: Gonna need it buddy!

 

[daisy]

OK…I have to respond to some comments here, I have not had a chance to read everything yet, but just a few. The sights need to be adjusted on the 9mm, becuase my husband had taken off the origanal sights & put on something different and did not get the sight sighted in correctly, my comment about a “pee shooter” on the 9mm, he feels it is not going to put someone down like a 45. I do have training & so does he, we both have a cpl & we go to the range 2-3 times a week, he sometimes more than I becuase Im always working, my husband is a big gun guy, I not so much, but after my first robbery I took action & started target practice, took the class & still continue, becuase our local chief of police is a dear friend of ours & he owns a gun range & teaches classes for the cpl. Him & I have talked over the last 2 days & he 100% feels that I am qualified to shoot, he trained me NOT my husband, he also said to me to not op in the store becuase it is just asking for trouble, if a robber comes in and sees the gun it will just will incourage him more to shoot me first, I am only going to pull it if & when my life feels threatened. But anyway like I said I have not read everyones comments yet, I will do so later. Just becuase Im a female doesnt make me stupid, I grew up in the country with 4 older brothers & I know exactly how to shoot a gun

 

[mp4doggie]

Wow have to say this is a great topic , I would like to touch on something real quick that someone posted about a customer who answers his door with a holstered gun . doesnt sound weird to me, I keep a gun on me where ever I go even in the house . ( yes even in the shower.

As far as for my store , I do carry a ruger 357 magnum revolver, hidden and my manager carrys a 40 cal sig. But I have made it crystal clear that if we are robbed we simply give them the money . the only time we will draw is if we will feel like they are there for more then just money . Im not going in the cooler , Im not going in to the basement . once they have the money thats it as far as im concerned .

my 2 cents

 

[daisy]

Ok…Read all comments. I told you this was going to be a touchy topic…

We got the 9mm sighted in last night & thats is what I am going to start carrying. I am very comfortable with it, I have shot it many times in the past & it fits me just great. I appreciate everyones opinions & comments.
I am going to from now on leave law topics to be answered by my close friend who is the chief of police & whom trained me & still continues to do so, I have been going to his range for the last 3 yrs & only post business topics here, just saying.
I know I asked for it, I just wanted to know from other business owners what their opinion was on open carry while in the store

Thanks again everyone. I really do appreciate the opinions

 

[NicksPizza]

FWIW,

I will not dine or even purchase food from a shop that openly carries firearms. At the very least, I do not trust strangers to use that weapon safely and to make my well being a high priority. If the danger is so high that they feel the need to carry exposed holsters with loaded firearms . . . . then it is a far more dangerous place than I ever want to stand for more than the time it takes to leave. Concealed is a matter for my better judgement. I do have a CC permit for my state, support right to bear arms . . . and will not frequent a place that has to carry exposed guns due to their perceived danger level necessitating such. No disrecpect intended, but your knowing and/or being trained by a Chief of Police does nothing to impress me or give me a feeling that you will be any less dangerous than the next guy. Others’ milage will vary.

That is my opinion, and that of the six frequent diners I did a quick straw poll with. I still support your right to make the decision . . . and we customers will make our subsequent decisions. I do wish you very well with that whole situation . . . it is a tough spot to be in.

 

[system]

Daisy first I never said anything about by being female makes you any less capable to use the firearm in a SAFE for all manner. Please dont put words in my mouth. I will defend my comments that by only having the info YOU posted…the picture I got…and I have extensive firearms training…was again based on what you said…was you and your husband did not and do not have the trainging and experience to carry safely. No offense but I still think you need some further training and be fitted correctly with weapon and carry method. MP4 has this correct… HAND OVER THE MONEY! It is that simple. Make sure employees knows this also. Once they have the money they will leave in 99.9% of robberies. Now the .1% that elevate the robbery to kidknapping by locking you into a walk-in…or homicide… this is when your concelled carry comes into play. GET MORE TRAINING and even the most highly trained people will tell you it is a neverending process. You can never tell me “I have taken a class and know how to shoot!” because until you are face to face with the guy/girl that is aiming at you and you can react without freezing…and even then…you cannot know exactly how you will react. Are you alone…is there a bday party of 20 five year olds standing behing the robber? If you miss? Are you using safety slugs because if you are in a stripmall and if you miss will probably go into the store nextdoor? You want them to fragment and not go through the walls! There are so many variables to an armed robbery that the only given can factor is how well trained you are and shooting at the range might help with hit count but does NOT train you to mentally survive this.

MP4 has this so right and sounds like he has the right training to survive and react/act to protect life and not property. Daisy…please dont just get offened…I am only speaking as I am in real concern for you, husband, and every employee or customer that enters your shop. Even the police chief… go get professional training. There are only a few dozen really firm and able places to have this done correctly. Gunsite in AZ. Gat Guns in N. IL is ok. Grey guns…online but still instructs. Go online and research your area. Some larger cities have classes taught by their deptament armorers. Call your weapons mfg and get names from them. Locals that work on their specific line.

PLEASE FOR YOURS AND EVERYONES SAKE…GET A LOT MORE REAL INSTRUCTION AND SERIOUSLY FIRE 2000-3000 ROUNDS THROUGH WHATEVER YOU DECIDE TO CARRY! THEN ANOTHER 500 A MONTH IN PRACTICE. THIS GOES FOR EVERYONE READING THIS…NOT JUST DAISY! SORRY BUT IF YOU CANNOT AFFORD TO PRACTICE YOU SHOULD NOT CARRY AS YOU WILL ONLY ADD MORE TO THE RISK THAN HELP RESOLVE ANY PROBLEM!

 

[system]

Daisy I wanted to just make sure you understand everything I said I would and have told others. Nick is right on with the “if I see open carry…is it even safe?” or what just happened to scare the owners to feel the need. I do not know where you live or what training the chief has…maybe he is a licensed firearms armorer and instructor or maybe just the local guy that the tow\n of 5000 elected for the post since he bagged the most deer last season. I hope for your sake he is more than the local elected guy. Please dont take offense as this is all for everyones sake and not picking on women or you and your husband. Just research and find a real instructor and at least spend the money on some real instruction. If you would like…pm me and I will gladly put you in touch with a real expert in your area that can help get you going in the right direction. This is in everyones best interest! :idea: