Question for Tom Lehmann "The Dough Doctor"

Discussion in 'The Think Tank' started by norma427, Jun 7, 2010.

  1. norma427

    norma427 Member

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    Tom,

    Thanks for all your helpful information. :D I also think a dough that is cold fermented will taste better when used in a par-bake skin. I can understand nothing will taste as good as a fresh baked crust.

    Your idea of using butter is very good in the formula. I can also see how brushing the hot par-baked crust with flavored infused oil would give the crust better flavor. I didn’t know to make sure that the salt amount should be 1.75% in a par-baked skin.

    I appreciate you took the time to go over all I posted.

    Thanks again,

    Norma
     
  2. Tom Lehmann

    Tom Lehmann Well-Known Member

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    Norma;
    Not a problem.
    You're like the "new" Otis Gunn.
    Please take that as a compliment.
    Tom
     
  3. norma427

    norma427 Member

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    Tom,

    I don't know who "Otis Gunn" is, but I sure will look it up. I am always looking for new information. I would like to compliment you on being so patient with me and all my questions. I wish I could just have some kind of computer chip, to transfer your knowledge to my brain. LOL

    Kindest Regards,

    Norma
     
  4. Tom Lehmann

    Tom Lehmann Well-Known Member

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    Norma;
    Otis was a regular visitor to, and participant in the Think Tank, for several years until his untimely death a couple years ago. Otis was a sponge when it came to soaking up information at the Think Tank, and he freely gave back as much as he could. His passion was his pizza trailer "The Pizza Wheel" if I remember the name correctly, in Quartzite, Arizona. I don't think there is a person out there who met Otis that didn't immediately like him, he was that kind of a guy. I worked closely with him in designing and outfitting his trailer, and considered him a very close and special friend, as did a lot of other people. To honor him, everyone at the Think Tank asked to have him shown as a moderaror of the Think Tank, you might say that his kindness and generosity lives on right here.
    You might want to ask the Think Tank about Otis Gunn too, I'm sure there are others still out thare who will contribute to the memory of Otis.
    Tom Lehmann/the Dough Doctor
     
  5. norma427

    norma427 Member

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    Tom,

    After I posted I did look up who Otis Gunn was and saw he was a regular contributor on the Think Tank. I also read about him on Google. He seems like the kind of man, that I also would have like to have know. I will post on Think Tank to see what memories members on here have of him. I think life is all about memories and people that contribute so freely with any information they can give. They are special people in my opinion.

    I appreciate you have even put me close to him. Hopefully someday I also will have enough knowledge to help members here on the Think Tank. I have only been learning about pizza a little over a year, and know I have so much more to learn. I only run a pizza stand at our local farmers market one day a week, but with Think Tank and pizzmaking.com, I have learned so much. I appreciate you give your time and knowledge so freely.

    My highest regards to you,

    Norma
     
  6. Tom Lehmann

    Tom Lehmann Well-Known Member

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    Norma;
    The crust you are describing is a "cold predded" crust. The dough formulation looks just like any other typical pizza dough formulation, except for the fact that it contains upward of 60 to 90-ppm (parts per million) of L-cysteine to produce the necessary, soft, flowable dough. The finished dough temperature is typically in the 100 to 110F range, again, to promote a soft, extensible dough. Mixing times are short, typically 5-minutes or less. Immediately after mixing, the dough is divided, oiled, and rounded using a rounding table as conventional rounders won't work with the extremely soft dough. The dough is then given a short, 5-minute rest period, before being placed onto a special pan, designed specifically for cold pressing. The dough is then pressed to size, it is usually then given a 1 to 2-minute rest at room temperature and it is pressed again, then it proceeds directly to the oven for baking. The baking conditions will vary greatly depending upon the type of oven used, but roughly 2-minutes at 400F would be close. The par-baked crusts are vacuume depanned immediately after they exit the oven and are given a short cooling before packaging.
    That's how they're made, in a nutshell.
    Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor
     
  7. norma427

    norma427 Member

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    Tom,

    Thanks for describing the crust as “cold predded”. I never heard of that term before. Since I am only trying this par-bake skin at home to see what kind of results I can achieve and don’t want to use anything like L-cysteine. (“dead yeast”, from what I have read about that it is made from bird feathers and usually Asian Hair, I have now avoided all things that might have that product in the labeling information.) After I learned how that product was made I have looked at products in the grocery store and that just grosses me out. Could garlic powder be used to make the dough soft and flowable, instead of the L-cysteine? I have read that garlic powder can be used as a softening agent, but don’t know to what extent it does soften dough. It good to know what finished dough temperature to try. I appreciate you explaining to me how the whole process is accomplished and also the bake time and temperature to try in my home oven. I will study more about this process and post in this thread if I can get any good results.

    Thanks again for going into detail about how a par-baked crust is “cold predded”.

    Your knowledge is never ending, :D

    Norma
     
  8. Tom Lehmann

    Tom Lehmann Well-Known Member

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    Norma;
    Originally, L-cysteine was made from hair, but today it is all made synthetically (so what isn't?). Garlic powder as well as onion powder does work as a reducing agent, but it is not effective enough to work in this application. If you don't use L-cysteine, your only other option is to use glutathione (dead yeast). The reason why this material has limited use commercially is due to its much greater cost. SAF/Red Star Yeast should be able to provide you with the glutathione.
    Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor
     
  9. norma427

    norma427 Member

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    Tom,

    That’s good to hear, that L-cysteine is made synthetically today. Maybe I might even try products made with L-cysteine again. LOL I will look into the L-cysteine and also may contact SAF/Red Star Yeast about seeing if I might be able to purchase glutathione.

    Thanks for you help,

    Norma
     
  10. norma427

    norma427 Member

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    Tom or anyone else that might be interested,

    This was my next attempt at the Ultra-Thin par-baked skin and pizza. I used milk, vinegar, and baking added to the par-baked skin formula to try and achieve a better tasting crust, in the finished pizza. The milk was made sour by the vinegar, and the baking soda then made the mixture foamy. A normal amount of salt was added to this formula. Although the par-baked skin worked out with the above formula, and the finished pizza crust did taste better, in terms of flavor, I think I really like a regular made pizza crust much better, after experimenting with this idea.

    This is a video of the finished par-baked skin.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v5jPRwsOaC8

    A video of the finished pizza, with the par-baked skin.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tVOh4snaxNA

    This is a video of my small pizza stand at Root’s Country Market. It is only 8'x`13'. The hours at market are from 9am until 9pm. Since our local farmers market isn’t air-conditioned, it can get very hot and humid in the summertime. The dough on the counter, in the plastic bags, is the preferment for the Lehmann dough that I have been using for awhile. It is made with a poolish, that is left to bubble in the Hatco Unit, then cold fermented for 3 days, incorporated into the final dough, then cold fermented for one day. I really like this dough and it is versatile for many things. I don’t use the pizza screens for baking the pies. I only use those to warm-up items like cheesy breadsticks, garlic knots, pizza pinwheels, or pizza buns. I do open the dough by hand.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dzCyvu4p2k4

    Norma
     
  11. Tom Lehmann

    Tom Lehmann Well-Known Member

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    Norma;
    Actually, the vinegar didn't make the milk sour, it just gave it an acid taste (vinegar is dilute acetic acid), and the acid in the vinegar reacted with the soda to cause foaming, just as it would if you were to mix vinegar and soda together in a glass. If the soda is correctly balanced to nutralize all of the acid in the vinegar, the net result is nothing. If there is an excess of soda, the net result is a higher pH (less acidity) in the finished crust, so the baked crust will be slightly darker in color and have a different taste. Too much soda can/will soaponify the oil in the crust making it into a soap with the predicted unique flavor characteristics of SOAP. If there is an excess of acid, you might find that the crust is a little slower to develop crust color, and it might be a little lighter in color due to the lower pH (greater acidity). With yeast leaveded products, this normally results in some flavor enhancement (think sour dough bread).
    I hope this explains a little of what you're seeing.
    Tom
     
  12. norma427

    norma427 Member

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    Tom,

    Thanks for explaining that the vinegar didn’t make the milk sour. When I bake sugar cookies, some breads and banana cupcakes or cakes, I always use this mixture and just added enough vinegar to the milk to make it curdle a little, then the baking soda. I found when using old recipes for these cookies, cupcakes, cakes or bread, there is never any soda taste in the finished product.

    I guess I used too much of this mixture in the formula, trying this attempt because the crust did get darker than I wanted. I didn’t understand and thought the mystery would never be solved, because when I made the par-bake crust it wasn’t that dark. After I froze it, took care to defrost it properly, it still turned darker, even while in the freezer. My pH must have been higher than it should have been. I am finding out with experimenting with different doughs, how important the pH in a dough is.

    Thanks you for going over all of this,

    Norma
     
  13. Tom Lehmann

    Tom Lehmann Well-Known Member

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    Norma;
    Acidity, as measured by pH and temperature are the two main controlling factors in a yeast leavened dough. Your temperature can be high enough to promote good, vigorous fermentation, but if the pH is not right for the yeast, you will still get sluggish, or no fermentation activity. And then too, you can have an ideal pH for yeast activity (4.2 to 4.8) but if your temperature isn't within the range to support vigorous fermentation (95 to 103F) actual is 50 to 125F, things aren't going to happen as anticipated.
    Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor
     
  14. norma427

    norma427 Member

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    Tom,

    I find that interesting how pH works with the yeast and acidity. I have a decent pH meter (a Cole Palmer pH meter), that I used, when I made salsa for market. Can I used that to determine if my experimental doughs are ready or if I would need to ferment them longer for a better taste in the crust? Sorry I keep asking you questions, but all this fascinates me.

    You are quite the detective when it comes to dough. 8)

    Thanks,

    Norma
     
  15. Tom Lehmann

    Tom Lehmann Well-Known Member

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    Norma;
    Sure, you will most likely be looking for a pH of around 4.6 or 4.7. For a buffer solution, be sure to use something like a 4.5 or 4.2.
    Tom
     
  16. norma427

    norma427 Member

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    Tom,

    Thanks, I will give that a try. Always your knowledge is so extensive. :D

    Norma
     
  17. Tom Lehmann

    Tom Lehmann Well-Known Member

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    Norma;
    What you have described is the cold pressing method of crust production. These methods all require the use of a reducing agent such as L-cysteine or glutathione (dead yeast). The pans you describe are referred to as "bulls eye" pans due to their circular ridge pattern in the bottom of the pan. The purpose of these ridges is to help lock the dough after pressing to reduce snap back. Oil is used on the pans to facilitate release of the crust from the pans after baking by vacuum depanning. The reason why you see so much oil on the par-baked crust is because the dough ball is heavily oiled prior to pressing (at the time of scaling/dividing to facilitate handling of the dough through the rounder and proofer (remember, this dough is very STICKY). We have never been able to successfully replicate this type of crust on any other processing equipment. The closest you might be able to come is by making your regular dough with a reducing agent (PZ-44) at 1 to 2% of the flour weight, mix the dough hot (90F), immediately scale and round, place into an oiled bowl and rest for 15 to 20-minutes at room temperature. Turn out of the bowl into an oiled baking pan and manually press out to the pan diameter. Give the panned dough a 5-minute rest and bake. With your dough factor you will be sacling at 6.75-ounces for a 12-inch diameter crust.
    Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor
     
  18. BBH

    BBH Member

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    Norma, not to interrupt your conversation here, but you can get great flavor out of the par bake.

    Using your listed formulation:

    1) Increase salt to 1% to 1.25%
    2) Remove Soda and Garlic (can keep if you like but I would remove)
    3) Add 5% Sasco Cultured Dry Buttermilk
    4) Take Olive oil (pure) down to 2.5%
    5) Add European Cultured Butter @ 2.5%
    6) Add 10% Semolina to the blend using 90% KAAP and 10% Semolina
    7) Take IDY to .50 with 24 to 48 hour cold ferment. Better tasting at 48 as well as crispier
    8) Roll super thin and dock well - par bake (I use 475) but know you are trying to replicate commercial which may be a lower temp.

    The crust flavor profile goes to a whole new level (in my opinion)

    BBH
     
  19. norma427

    norma427 Member

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    BBH,

    Sorry, I didn’t respond sooner, but had received a email notification a day earlier that someone had posted on this thread. When I went to look at what was posted it was spam. That is why I didn’t look at your post until today.

    I appreciate you posting how to get great flavor out of the par bake. What is Sasco Cultured Dry Buttermilk? I never hear of that product before. If I can find Sasco Cultured Dry Buttermilk and European Cultured Butter I will give your formulation a try.

    Thanks!

    Norma
     
  20. BBH

    BBH Member

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    Sure....

    Euro Style Butter: both of these are fantastic butters, very rich and high in fat (which is why it tastes so good) both are national award winners.

    Organic Valley - there is a store finder on the web site - available at most stores:
    http://www.organicvalley.coop/products/ ... ean-style/

    Cabot - Euro Style 83 - there is also a store finder on the web site
    http://www.cabotcheese.coop/pages/our_p ... =42&id=478


    Sasco - Cultured Butter Milk - there is a Locate Product on the web site. Available at all stores in my area and distribution channels. Contains sweet dairy whey as well as sweet cream - all dry
    http://sacofoods.com/products/view/cultured-buttermilk

    Adding these into your formulation will add some depth and a new flavor profile. I do not add more that 5% Cultured buttermilk as I find it to be the right amount. The butter is very rich so I stay in the lower percentages of 2.5% to 6% depending on crust style. For thin, 2.5% I found adds just enough flavor but is not too buttery.

    The Dry Buttermilk I add dry to the flour along with the Semolina and stir it up before adding the mix to any other item including water. The butter I melt and begin to add gradually after the first minute of machine mixing

    If you desire additional sweetness (but not too much) you can add 1% to 1.25% sugar non dissolved to the mix. If you dissolve completely (in a water portion) prior to adding to the mix, your par bake will brown more than you may like. Its a personal preference but you can go either way.

    BBH