Snap Back, and general doh! questions

[eupher61]

I’m pretty satisfied with our dough aside from one big thing, mentioned the thread title.

I’ve noticed a lot of snapback. I thought it was due to someone not making the dough properly, but when I do it myself, the same thing happens. What should be, and was at panning, all the way to the rim edge is now at the bottom of the 1/2" rim. Taste is good, but that’s not what I want.

I do need to say that we are NOT doing the supposed standard divide/ball/doughbox/cooler thing. We’re making dough in the morning for use that night, at night for the next morning, but if we get slammed it is used sooner. I have no interest in changing this, so please, don’t tell me I’m doing dough wrong. It’s not wrong, simply different. I’ve seen and worked with this for too many years, it does work.

I suspect the problem is heat. Our kitchen suffers from a lack of cooling. I’ve had an AC guy come out and add two vents from different AC units, and it has helped, but the fact remains that an 88º kitchen is not good for dough making.

I’ve adjusted water temp from low 90s to 96. That helped with general texture, but not with the snapping. Is more oil a possible solution? We’re using All Trumps, 25#/11# 4z yeast, 4z oil,16z sugar, 8z salt (oil added last, of course).

It’s pretty consistent, at least. I’ve tried rolling thinner, but that only results in either big overhanging areas which DON’T snapback, or snapback when dough is properly arranged after being rolled large.

Otherwise, aside from typical one-month-after-opening issues (a few service problems, still slow cooking from very part-timers), we’re doing great overall. Grand Opening day is 8/31…it will be fun!

thanks!
steve
edited to clarify the recipe…an extra 4.5 in there for some reason…

 

[Patriot_sPizza]

You really answered your own question…few operatore, I believe, use dough they made in the morning for thevevening shift, as it’s not had enough time to ‘mature’ & develop flavor…IMHBCO…lol…

But if you ‘have’ to do your dough in that matter, give it much more proof time on he floor, before making your skis/bases…it will improve the dough characteristics & be easier to mold…even just an hour will help…

Some might offer a reducing agent, but not worth it…

 

[eupher61]

well…since I’ve used this and similar dough for 25 years, and it’s a variant of a recipe that I know is used in several venues…as I said, it’s a proven dough, people love the flavor and texture.

The rest of the story is the fact that the humidity, as well as the temperature, is higher at night after a full day of dishes and oven. Most of the humidity should go out in the hood, but it still is a contributing factor.

I just happened to pick up the PMQ with Tom’s article about snapback today (I haven’t had time to do much besides work and sleep lately). It’s as common a problem as the gum line, and at least as frustrating. We’re making a little headway on the gum line, I think. A couple more things to try in that area.

 

[bodegahwy]

Wow. That is a very different recipe and procedure. I know that does not help with your question, but the mix and the procedure is so different from anything I have used I hardly know where to start. We use a lot more oil, about half that much yeast and try to get our water as cold as possible i.e. about 60 in the summer and colder than that in the winter… all to make dough we will use the next day.

I can say, that if we get slammed and use dough we made the same day we have the same problem.

 

[Deacon_V]

Same here. The only time we have an issue with this pulling back is when we try to use the dough before it’s ready.

FWIW…

25# All Trump
26C COLD water
7oz IDY
7oz salt
3.5oz white sugar
12oz olive oil

water in the bowl, flour, mix to hydrate…dry good, mix, oil…to finish. balled and cross-stacked
but hey, everyone has their thing, good luck on getting your answer figured out. We run 88-95 in our kitchen pretty much year round. Takes 20-25 min. to get a batch in the walk-in which is 35-38F.

 

[Piper]

Hopefully Tom will be along to help out with this, but…

Snap-back is caused by lack of fermentation. We never use dough less than 24 hours old here, unless it’s a real emergency. If it is, we modify our procedures to speed up the fermentation process (more yeast, less salt, hotter water, and proof time next to the oven).

I know you said you didn’t want to hear it, but the reason you’re getting snap-back is you’re using dough that’s too young (i.e. not fermented enough).

I’m not sure why heat would be your problem… heat speeds fermentation. At your temperatures, that dough has to be coming off of your mixer at over 95 degrees. You must have a very short window in which to use this dough before it’s blown.

If you’re dead set on using this procedure, I think you may need to lower your salt level. 2% is already on the high end, and salt slows fermentation. So you’re combining a recipe that requires long fermentation with extremely short fermentation times.

But then again, your yeast level is very high which speeds the fermentation. To be honest, this seems to be more of an “emergency dough” recipe and procedure. Like Steve said, this is definitely an unusual dough!

Another option could be to use a flour with less protein. If you’re really set on using this procedure you may need to consider a reducing agent. That seems like a lot of extra stuff though, for a problem that can be easily solved by making your dough 12 hours earlier (in that case, I think you’d need to reduce the yeast and water temperature).

 

[rtwpizza]

You seem to Know exactly what your doing!! Why are You asking for advice when you obviously already know the answer to your own question? :roll:

 

[Tom_Lehmann]

I think the dough formula and procedure is really just a through back from the early days of U.S. pizza making. What appears to be described is just how the dough was made back in the 50’s and early 60’s. So why didn’t we have the problems with snap back/dough memory back then? To a great extent we did, so we just make the skins bigger to account for the snap back. BUT, keep in mind that the dough was typically made early in the day and not used until the early evening hours (remember, back then pizza was not a meal, it was more of a snack or “social” food.) This means that the dough was always well fermented and seldom, if ever, used as a young (under fermented) dough. The difference between those doughs and what has been described is that the finished dough temperature was typically in low 80’s and the yeast level (as compressed yeast) was around 2-ounces. By the time the store was open for business, the dough was ready for use. As the evening progressed, the dough continued to ferment resulting in a slightly softer dough with even less snap back at forming (typically through a sheeter/roller) and at the same time the finished crust developed more of a fermentation flavor. If the dough temperature was not well controlled, those last few crusts of the day were getting pretty close to what we today call poker chip crusts (entirely flat with little, if any raised edge). As you might imagine, this process put a lot of emphasis on the strength of the flour…and that is how high protein/gluten became synomomous with pizza flour. With time, and the advent of pizza chains, the need for greater dough consistency and uniformity, plus the ability to accomodate longer hours of operation lead to the development of the dough management procedures we commonly use today (dough balling and refrigerated storage/fermentation).
Hopefully there is something in here that Steve can use to get his dough back on track.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

 

[eupher61]

Gee…thanks for the non-judgemental responses, folks…

I ended up calling Bill Weekly at Gold Medal, who gave me a lot of help. If you’ve never done one of his Dough Boot Camps, it’s well worth it. Even with our unorthodox methods, he was able to make a couple of suggestions which have proven successful.

BTW, looking at my OP in this thread, I misstated the proportions. I don’t have the bakers % in my mind, since for so many years I did it by volume, but the yeast, oil, salt, and sugar listed are by VOLUME, not mass. That makes a lot of difference.

For the past 2 weeks, the only batches of dough that haven’t lasted into the 3rd day are one that I made, where I didn’t tare the scale for the water, and one by an employee who normally makes dough at least as good as mine. The problem was with the size of the final, panned product, but I didn’t see the batch out of the bowl.

It may be a throwback to before pizza became so popular in the US, but it works. We’re selling about 60-40 of our Traditional to our St Louis style (Bonici die-cut crusts). Our customers definitely like it.