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Top crust not browning, bottom is ok

E

eduardo

New member
(I originally posted this on pizzamaking.com, you can see the photos there)

The top part of our crust is flat and doesnt brown at all even though the bottom part does get a decent browning depending on the oven time.

In a reply to another message Pete-zza suggested to answer a couple of questions to be able to better understand our procedure and thus be able to help us better.

So, here are those questions with their answers along with a couple of (blurry) photos.

Thanks in advance for your help.
  1. which specific version of the Lehmann dough recipe you are using,
I’m using the recipe found at PMQ’s website but with added sugar:

Flour 100.0%
Salt 2.3%
Sugar 2.0%
Yeast 0.5%
Oil 3.0%
Water 55.00%
Whey 2.50%
  1. what kind and brand of flour are you using,
I’m using a “hard” flour that has 13% of protein.
  1. whether you are using a room temperature fermentation or a cold fermentation, and for how long,
Balls are formed and stored in the cooler for at least 12 hours. I put the dough balls in a metal sheet and cover them with paper.
  1. what kind of oven are you using (e.g., electric, gas, convection, etc.), and
We have a commercial gas deck oven bought from a local but respectable manufacturer here in Mexico.
  1. what is the baking regimen you are using (i.e., oven temperature, rack position of the screen, preheat time, any broiler use, and bake duration).
The dough ball for a 18inch weights 22 ounces and for a 14in 15 ounces.

Pizza is prepared in a peel and then transfered directly to the oven. No screens or pans are used. The pizza is placed directly on the stone. Oven temperature is 525 F degrees.

At around 8 minutes in the oven the bottom part of the pizza looks “done” (dark brown, with some darker spots), great color. The border of the pizza on the top side is quite flat and very white. It tastes ok but it isn’t appealing to the eyes.

If I leave it more in the oven the cheese starts to burn and the bottom part of the pizza gets burnt to the point where it tastes bad.

Thanks again!
 
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If the dough is cooked through when the bottom is “done”, and the top is just not browning, you could have either of three things: 1) overfermented dough; 2) not enough sugar in your dough; 3) something else that someone else will see.

You might try adding sugar to your dough, maybe to 2.5% (unless someone says I’m crazy). If your dough iis smelling incredibly yeasty or like beer, it could be over-fermented, and will not brown well. Theyeast will have robbed the dough of the sugar.

You might also try a screen for your pies. Bake for a few minutes then place directly on deck to finish. It will give time for top to brown and cook before bottom burns.
 
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Nick

thanks for your reply. Someone on the other board suggested that I might have just too much sugar in it and that the crust is overbrowning.

Is this a possibility ?
 
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Hello Eduardo,I would try cutting back on the sugar 1% and baking on a screen therefor allowing the top time to cook.Trial and error will definitely help you.
Niccademo
 
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odd…I had a “deck” pizza last night, from an “acquaintance” of mine…decent pie but top was not brown…

Don’t you “adjust” the deck’s vents to increase top heat?

Us conveyors guys don’t have to “deal” with that
 
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goomba:
Hello Eduardo,I would try cutting back on the sugar 1% and baking on a screen therefor allowing the top time to cook.Trial and error will definitely help you.
Code: 
                         Niccademo
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Yup. That makes still more sense than What I offered.

See, those dough guys are smarter . . . they don’t use frozen dough rocks like I do. They get their hands all in it and know the rules.
 
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Edwardo;
Lets see if we can put the pieces of the puzzle together.
Your bake time is about 8-minutes and you are getting good bottom color in your deck oven. My first thought was to say that the sugar and whey were contributing to a fast and “artificial” browning of the bottom of the crust. It probably is to some extent, but then you also indicated that if you left the pizza in the oven any longer you got excessive browning of the cheese. With 0.5% yeast I don’t know if the fermentqtion is excessive or not. What kind of yeast are you using? What is your finished (mixed) dough temperature? My gut feel though is that this isn’t the problem.
So, where does this leave us? I’m thinking about what one of the other responders said about top heat. I think he is on the right track. Do you have any top heat controls on the oven? Is the oven designed specifically as a “pizza” oven? I got the impression that this might be a locally manufactured oven. If that’s the case, it could be a design problem in the oven. What top heat controls does the oven have? What is the height of the inside of the oven (baking chamber)? Have you seen this oven in use by any other pizzeria? And lastly, double check the oven temperature to confirm that it is actually operating at 525F, check the burner flame when you put a few pizzas in the oven to see if the burners are responding by going to high flame, check the color of the flame (blue or yellow)? Make sure you have the correct size gas line and that the regulator is the correct one for the oven.
Please keep us posted on what you find as you go through this check list.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor
 
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Tom, Nick, Patriot,

thanks for answering.

As for your questions Tom:
It probably is to some extent, but then you also indicated that if you left the pizza in the oven any longer you got excessive browning of the cheese
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No, we don’t get excessive browning. Is just that the cheese is boiling and starts to look dry. There is virtually no springback of the crust and the top crust is white.
What kind of yeast are you using?
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I’m using Instant Dry Yeast which we have in a goodie bag along with the other ingredients.
What is your finished (mixed) dough temperature?
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We always aim for 80F and usually achieve it.
Do you have any top heat controls on the oven? Is the oven designed specifically as a “pizza” oven? I got the impression that this might be a locally manufactured oven. If that’s the case, it could be a design problem in the oven. What top heat controls does the oven have? What is the height of the inside of the oven (baking chamber)? Have you seen this oven in use by any other pizzeria?
Click to expand...
The oven doesn’t have any top controls and, yes, its marketed for pizza. The internal height of the oven is 9 inches. You can take a look at at a picture of said oven if you go to the following url and click on the arrow of the lower right corner. The model is “MOD.RZ” http://www.san-son.com/hornos.htm (you will have to click the arrow on the bottom right about 5 times).

This oven is in fact used in (at least) a quite popular pizzeria. They have at least 6 of those ovens.
And lastly, double check the oven temperature to confirm that it is actually operating at 525F, check the burner flame when you put a few pizzas in the oven to see if the burners are responding by going to high flame, check the color of the flame (blue or yellow)?
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The flame is blue in color and responds to load.

We took a temperature measures of the oven in 9 spots (like in a grid). With the thermostat at 525F only the center of the oven was at that temperature. Other spots where in average 510F with the front area having a temperature of around 498F.

Thanks again for any help
 
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Those number are close enough to make pizza with. Are you using a Mozzarella cheese or a more common Caso Balnco Like many restaurants use to make their fried cheese with? Do you by any chance shape the dough by running it through a sheeter? This could be so compressing and degassing the dough that it is actually conduction heat into the more moist parts (center) of the pizza where it is dissipated as steam. A quick way to see if this might be the cause,is to shape a dough skin and allow it to set and rest at room temperature for 20 minutes, then sauce, cheese, add toppings and bake. If you get better edge color we’re on the right track.
If you can give this a shot, please let me know what you find.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor
 
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Do you by any chance shape the dough by running it through a sheeter? This could be so compressing and degassing the dough that it is actually conduction heat into the more moist parts (center) of the pizza where it is dissipated as steam.
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The cheese we use is Mozarella blend, good quality one.

We don’t use a sheeter, we use hands and a rolling pin. I will pay more attention to this procedure, maybe we are degassing it/compressing it too much.
A quick way to see if this might be the cause,is to shape a dough skin and allow it to set and rest at room temperature for 20 minutes, then sauce, cheese, add toppings and bake. If you get better edge color we’re on the right track.
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Coincidentally we have done what you suggest (but for other reasons) and have obtained the same results.
[/quote]
 
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Patriot
Don’t you “adjust” the deck’s vents to increase top heat?
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The oven has an exhaust which you connect to the ventilation (maybe thats not the correct word) so that we can direct the heat to the outside.

This exhaust is not adjustable in the sense that it has valves or gauges. I could, though, cover it somehow to limit the amount of heat that escapes. Thing is, I don’t know if this is something that one can/should do.

And I don’t really think our manufacturer knows something about that.
 
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eduardo:
And I don’t really think our manufacturer knows something about that.
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Would you be willing to tell us the manufacturer name? Maybe we can find some useful info and share it to you.
 
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eduardo,

Is this a recent problem with a new oven or new dough formulation? And where are you located in Mexico? Can you tell us the brand of flour?
 
I have a deck and I put my temp at 450 i think your oven might be up to high to me i think the bottom would cook quicker than the top. 😉
 
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