Pizza Delivery Drivers Sixth Grandmother Dies … -dies,663/

Request for removal. This fake story does nothing but broaden the gap between drivers and store owners. Frankly, I would not hesitate to assume that this article was posted simply to raise the ire of drivers (and former drivers) visiting this board. This same goes for the other post from “The Onion”.

Fake? Now you have the final say as too what is real and what is fake in the world? Your powers always seem to amaze me! Although the Onion can stretch things a bit at times…I can see this happening. I know you, PPG2270, truly believe that the world revolves around you and other pizza delivery people, but at some point will you just go take a chill pill and lighten up a bit. Think about how much more stress-free your life could be if you just learned to take a joke at times! Not too mention the fact that you think you must defend every other pizza delivery person in the world. Get over yourself! :idea: :arrow: :!:

And Mike, your life would be so less stressful if you didn’t feel the need to jump on each and every one of my posts. The Onion is fake news (satirical at best). You continue to hound me with your attitude of “drivers must not be real intelligent because it’s not a real job.” Did someone give you Herman Cain’s old job at the NRA? IF not, (LOL) then why do you worry so much about my position of higher pay for drivers?

There is a point that can be made from your logic though. I quit full-time delivery in 2005 and part-timne delivery in 2010. I started in 1997. (And in between worked in diffrent “pizza” positions as well). As the pay/MR remained the same for drivers (or in some cases lowered) over the years, I noticed that the only ones remaining were the bitter drivers having no other options and those monkeys working for beer/pot money. THESE ARE THE PEOPLE REPRSENTING THE STORES AT CUSTOMERS’ DOORS. Personally, I wouldn’t take that chance. Turnover rates become high with these types of workers. and that means more training time and longer delivery times. Apparently I am in the minority when I state that to get the best workers, pay a decent wage. That goes for any line of employment. Add that to my already stated argument about the dangers of the job, and my case is a strong one.

Oh PPG… what is really comical about all of this is that I am one of the people around here that over pays and over benefits every employee that he has ever had work for him or a company that I have had direct employee control of. I would appreciate that you don’t put words in my mouth as you constantly do. I have never said delivery people are dumb nor that it is not a real job. There are many intelligent people that work all types of jobs. I know quite a few people that work jobs just like delivery positions for reasons they like. First, they make good money with few hours worked. Second, it really is not a high-stress job…not like you are bringing your work home with you. They also like the hours they work. They also realize that although they make money while they deliver… they also work hard to further the establishment that they work for. They are an integrated part of a larger picture. What I have issue with is that you feel that delivery drivers are so much better of an employee because they are what they are. BS!!! All employees are part of the successful running of any business. The structure of employees is of utmost importance to make a business succeed and do so with a profit in the end…oh wait… I forgot that is a big no-no these days. I hope for yours and all your brothers in cars that the 1%'ers dont disappear anytime soon…as all your jobs would too. As I would never support the silencing of you or people like you… I as well as many others are not amused with what are nothing more than rants and thoughtless posts at times (ie: TTPG)!!! You have beed told many times over by many business owners here on the TT as well as a handfull of drivers that you really are preaching to the wrong group here. Yes, some pay tip-wage but almost all do not. They also have a real good idea what their drivers are making and taking home and in the end… if you can make $12-15 an hour after all your expenses…then you are not doing that bad for what you are doing. Sorry but delivery positions are not $100k a year jobs. I am sure some drivers make really good money and sad but I am sure many work long hours for low pay and for owners that really suck. That is the real world. The real way to change the working environment and pay and benefits to help drivers and other entry to mid level employees is to not take these jobs from these employers. I know this is easier said than done but until people stop working in these conditions the change will not take place. That said… there are many well paid employees that work on tip-credit pay scales. My aunt is a professional server and has worked at some of the best, largest, and busiest restaurants in the Chicago area. Bob Chinn’s is one example where servers and busser staff all work for tip-wage pay. They also can make $35K a year as a busser and most servers take home $70-80k there. They do high volume and offer high quality in a very professional environment. I know this is not the norm but it shows what is possible with the right business model is there and when all the pieces fall into the correct places.

PPG I will tell you the same thing I say to people here that are trying to start up a new business in this very tough restaurant world. Get your plan figured out first and stick too it. Random rants and postings do nothing to promote change or progress in what you believe in. There are much better ways to voice concerns that warrant change. :idea:

Believe it or not there seems to be many things on which we agree. You say that you overpay and overbenefit those under your managerial jurisdiction. My question is: why? I am not asking nor demanding that drivers receive more than they are worth. However, I think that is the big issue between you and I; that is, defining the worth of a driver. You seem to want to cap a driver at $12-$15 per hour. Whether or not that is a good wage depends on a few things, including the volume of the shop, the quickness of the driver, etc. It should NEVER depend on stores taking a part of earned tips (gifts - another issue) as part of its operating income. I have outlined my argument that good employees stem from good wages (we seem to agree on that) and that the job is dangerous and worth more than tip credit wages (not so sure about the agreement there). A third argument would be that stores operated just fine prior to operating under tip credit. I suppose that a counter-argument could be that since the big 3 offer 1980s prices ($10 pies) while operating under tip credit, the smaller stores (such as many operators here in the TT) must compete in turn. I would say that if you offer superior product and have better employees (i.e. paid better) than you would have a different type of competitive advantage.

Now I realize that without the stores making a profit, no jobs would exist. At the same time, is it right for shop owners to be partying on their yachts all weekend (extreme example) while the drivers are deciding whether to pay the electric bill or buy oil and tires for their vehicles?

P.S. I am not “going there” about TTPG. That board is designed for drivers to rant. Some rants are justified, and others not so much. Enough said.

Do you dopes realize you are arguing over an article in the Onion?

Ben you are missing the entire point. As an entry level job making $12-15 an hour is not a bad wage. You are the one that insists on drivers making 6-figures and that is not the real world. As far as me treating my employees very well and paying them even better…well that is easy. I MAKE MORE MONEY!!! Call me a greedy 1%'er. I dont care. I learned long ago that if you pay great you get great. You dont get drivers like the ones in the Onion stories. You dont have to put out the fire each and everyday you walk in the door. You dont have to be the first in the shop because only YOU have a key! That is why I pay better and offer more. The otherthing is that I chose to do this all by myself…not because of some ranting and complaining employee. Who knows which way I would have gone if I had people like you that put me into a blanket group of evil business owners. My comments show that I believe that any position can make as much as any person wants it too…they just have too EARN IT!!! That is the real issue here… I want my employees to WORK for me and their money!!! You constantly whine about other job duties that you feel are under the “delivery drivers position” and that is total crap! Even at tip-credit wages you are an employee of that company and should do what is required to make the company and then yourself more profitable. If a company is doing well…in most cases… the employees will also reap the benefits of that. If they do not or the owner does not recognize this…then move on. If you are such a value and great employee you will have no problem getting a better and more compensated position elsewhere. The real issue is not poor business management… it is the poor attitudes of employees that only hold themselves back. Maybe you need to preach over at TTPG a bit. They are not part of the solution yet!!! :!: Just a side note… my first job was working at BK when I was just over 15 in Chicago. In 3 months the owner of the franchise made a passing comment of how he wished his managers had a work ethic like mine. I said make me a manager. He laughed…I DID NOT! In two weeks I was the new ass’t mgr with all the authority of the over 18 managers without a door key. Which didnt really matter in a 24hr a day store! I did have a managers key for registers and the safe. From that point on I never looked back. No matter the company…I either went in to manage it or owned it. Some worked out and others did not…but no matter who or what I went in there with the attitude that this place was mine and for me to succeed they had too also. That is the biggest difference these days. Workers want it all for nothing.

Oh, and please dont go back to the poor drivers that cant eat this month because they need another brake job or their car blew up again…because that is crap! Just because an individual cannot manage their money is not the owners fault. Drivers, servers, and strippers all have this issue among themselves. When dealing with cash on hand at the end of the shift…they SPEND IT! Why not make that car payment like the rest of us do so our car is not a pos that breaks down monthly! You the driver want more respect…then earn it! Show me responsibility and not just complaints!!! :idea:

Pizzamancer… actually we are not!!! :roll:

I can see that we are closing in on mutual ground. I would never expect a decent wage to be paid to a non-decent worker. In other words, you want a decent pay, you earn it. Period! These drivers that stop off for a drug run or merely do not have simple skills such as counting change or the ability to learn a delivery area should be hired in the first place. However, it has got to the point where these are the only types of new hires available based on the pay scheme. And it will get worse when the economy recovers. There is no point of someone paying a mortgage or paying on a new(er) car or trying to raise a family taking one of these jobs as the pay scheme currently exists. In other words, only college kids (who may or may not show up on the weekends,) stoners, and people who cannot do anything else will apply for these jobs. Shorthanded store owners (or big 3 stores who expect turnover and couldn’t care less) will hire these people in a heartbeat. A driver’s job (in general) is nowhere near as lucrative as it was in the mid to late 90s. Why is that?

I am glad that you pay your employees a fair wage. You want the best, you pay the price. And you make profit. That has been my whole point. As far as the pizza business specifically goes, who would take a chance on not being able to trust their employees? There are obviously two types of respect that an employer can show the employee. The first is verbal respect. The second is wages/compsensation. Both are important, but which one builds trust and shows the worker the value of the appreciation of the work? Let me give you an example…

Beside the store, the driver is working for the customer as well. The driver delivers a hot pie in a good timeframe. The driver expects a tip, but instead gets a “thank you very much” with no tip. While verbal appreciation for a job well done has been expressed, praise does not fill a gas tank. More to the point, a store owner/manager may be very decent and express a “job well done” but without proper compensation, the monetary value of the job is lacking.

As far as “other duties” for a driver is concerned, this IS the fault of the management. If a store is run properly, there should never be “downtime” for drivers to complete insider tasks. Instead, a properly run store should have drivers on the road, thereby making everyone more money and allowing for the ability to have more insiders present to complete these tasks. When drivers are performing inside tasks, this means they are not on the road and both the driver and the store is not making money.

Some of this should be obvious to a businessman who is doing well for himself…

PPG…being a tipped profession you have to take the no tippers with the great tippers. I have a friend that owns her own salon. She just spent 4 years living in Boston working as an educator for one of the worlds largest mfg’s of high-end hair products. She quit a $100k a year job to move home and reopen her place. She has always talked about the people that come in and get $200 cuts and colors and tip nothing or $5. Then there are those that tip $100 on the same service. Yes she bictches about the low or no tippers but then I remind her that you need to average out all of them and treat them all the same too!!! Even though customer might not tip well or correctly… he/she might tell 10 friends how great you or your offerings are and those 10 might be great tippers. You have to look at the big picture of things.

Just to expand on the respect comment that was made as this is a very needed point to be made. My family had around 300 employees when we sold our family business to one of the big guys (not pizza). We built it from 10 people in an old flower shop to what you see in the pic below. The one thing that helped every step of the way was how my father treated and interacted with all 300 of them. He knew everyone from the 20 year vet to the temp help guys that had been there a week and all by name. He had lunch in the employee cafe 4-5 days a week. Played cards there too! He lost quite often…more so than I think he should have. He was also known to personally drop by on Thanksgiving or Easter with a full meal in hand for a family or even friends of a family of someone that worked for him if he would hear they were in need. As we got larger…these people would find gift cards in their mailboxes for local grocery stores and sometimes an open reservation at a restaurant for those holiday dinners with a note saying the check is covered! He did alot in front of and behind the scenes. In return… he expected alot in return. He went against the mindset of taking the human factor out of our business and not allowing overtime. He looked at overtime as somewhat of a bonus for working those hard and long hours. You better believe we had some long weeks. Before restructuring and expanding…alot of 60-80+ hour weeks. Start times at 5am and working till midnight. I wont lie…they sucked!!! Our Christmas party was always the last week of Nov so every employee would get a bonus for Christmas. All hourly employees got $25 per week of service but was adjusted for weeks with time missed. Needless to say that someone with no sick days or unapproved time off could get substantial bonuses after a few years of service. It was money well spent. The flip side was employees that did the hours… worked in extreme cold (-50f) and heat (135f) conditions. Freezers to steam kettles. This mutual respect is what made things work. It made us the 5th largest soup mfg in the country. We did have the same small group of bad apples just like we read about here on the TT. You deal with them and move on. They can have a very disruptive and destructive voice if not taken care off. Just like dealing with the unions every year…they would try and always fail. Why? Because we treated our workers very well. One thing to remember though is this respect goes both ways. Like they say… dont bite the hand that feeds you! :!:

Most of what you said makes sense. It is hard to argue success via a good work ethic. I just want to clear up one final thing. I am not one of those people who want “money for nothing.” I came into a store and did what was asked of me, whether it was managing a crew of 20 or taking a single pie 5 miles out of area.

My problem is that the people who did not share my work ethic get paid the same crappy wage with no chance for raises. Until tip credit wages were implemented, a driver received a raise (albeit a small one) for a job well done. This let me (and other good workers) know that the hard work was apprectiaed. Unfortunately, these days raises are a thing of the past and the only thing that is dwelled upon is the negative.I cannot state that ALL shop owners operate this way, but for the two indies I personally know and the big 3 stores, this is how it operates.

I did not want to make the same tip credit wage as the stoner incapable of producing a coherent sentence working on shift with me. I do all the work (because I am the “go to guy”) while the poster boy for drug use gets a free pass. This is what the job became, and that is why I no longer do it.

Better wages = better employees. But for some reason, no one seems to care anymore. As a result we get a mass turnover of replaceable drones who truly never learn the job, nor do they care to learn the job. For $4 per hour, who would?

I advocate for better wages for drivers so the job gets done in a professional manner. Better employees means less turnover (saving the store training hours) and allows the employees to feel needed. I will hustle my behind off - if I feel appreciated. And in the end, that means money.

You answer your own arguement. If they recognize you get things done you get the extra runs which means more tips and income. You also deserve the larger raise. If the owner does not see this…then pull them aside privately and make the point. Maybe you get an extra $1 per run or a couple dollars an hour. The thing is that you need to keep this too yourself otherwise the other less desireable drivers will complain and want the same. With 300 people it is hard to reward one or two when they run their mouths off. In the end… they all learn that hard work, less headaches, and just being there as scheduled will lead to some hefty promotions and wage increases. Just dont turn around and shove it in the face of the other 10 guys doing your job for half the pay. I, the owner/manager, know that you lead them along. I also have no issues with letting you know that. That said, one rule to telling any employee about a problem or negative issue was to include a few positives. Dont make your only conversation with any employee always a negative. You quickly get the “the boss wants to talk too ya, what did you do?” attitude. I know I am not at the top of the list as far as people following this mindset…as many wont do it. It is their loss! I understand that some cannot afford to do this either. To them…I was in that boat many times. I would say the old adage… “It takes money to make money!” Give the crew a party. Have a meeting once a month to say thanks for the hard work and as things turn around share some of the rewards. Instead of a $1 an hour raise in 6 months… give them a dime a month for each month of growth. I am not saying go crazy and do it if you really cannot afford it… but the little incentives on your part will really go a long way in their eyes. Years of talking to people here I have seen success, hardship, and failure. All 3 caused by the economy, the owner themselves, and for every other reason under the peel (sun)! Some have great success with almost nothing invested and others lose the house. The reality is some get so lucky they should play the lotto every night while others just sank the kids college fund into an oven. There are so many spectrums of the restaurant world and I wish all could win but this is the real world and if everyone did…well we would have just a few too many restaurants and for that matter… cell phone stores and gyms around. :wink:

Oh…and if the owner does not recognize this nor reward it when possible… remember not all will see or know how to do this. This is where the private talk comes into play. If that does not work… move on! :idea:

The better driver/employee makes better money because they work smarter. The same drivers make more runs than the other drivers every night in our store. The slow pokes wonder why the better ones walk with $120 in tips for 4 hours when they “only” made $80.

It is not because some drive faster than others, it is because they are thinking about the job and doing it better; making smarter choices about routing, knowing the streets and the condos, knowing which hotels you have to call the room first. It is also because they do not forget things and have to make extra runs and because they check the fuel and fill up when it is slow rather than during the rush.

Better tips also come from being more personable at the door. Again, better work results in better wages.

Hence, the better pay for better work takes care of itself.

Side work is side work. Everybody does it.

Steve said what I tried too but I like to type too much! :stuck_out_tongue: The smarter working employee knows what choices to make that will benefit themselves and the company. They realize that by doing their best and in an efficient manner that everyone will benefit in the long run. I would like to add something that thanks to my 4 1/2 year old…yes…she reminds me of the half!..I think this is important. People need to work and improve on what they are doing and not what everyone else is or is not doing. She gets in trouble all the time for reporting on what all the other 4-5 year olds are up too in pre-k. She ends up being the problem at that point. I know we all would love quick success and advancement but sometimes you just have to dig in and work your a$$ off to reap the benefits. As an owner I understand what her teachers feel like when she is too busy talking about the others than doing her own stuff. I can see for myself who is an asset and who is not. You dont have to tell me…for the most part. It makes you look pitty. Now on that same note…if someone is doing something so far out of the norm or that is dangerous or costly to my business…by all means pull me aside and fill me in. Just dont have a new list everyday. You are there too work and not lifeguard my operation.

I know we go round and round with all this wage and tip stuff but in the end everyone here really wants the same outcome. They want to work/own a successful operation so they can enjoy whatever level of lifestyle they want. It is hard when some get lucky and do it in a year and others close shop after 20 years of struggle. This is still America and you can still make your dreams come true. It is harder than ever to make it happen but it is still possible. The sad truth is that we cannot keep this great country going on handouts and entitlements. You cannot redistribute the wealth because that works one time and then what do you do once everyone gets their cut? It’s called socialism and we see how well it worked in the USSR and N. Korea…etc… It does not! We need to start rebuilding our nation and allow capitalism to take hold once again and with the natural process of success and failure to weed out who should make it and who should not. We cannot and will not survive if everyone is handed everything. The world as a whole decides who makes it and who does not. Politics and who you know should not be the deciding factor as to whether or not you succeed. :!:

:shock: This is by far the best paragraph I have ever seen you write. Brilliant!

I like to think they were all that good…and that you just put on your reading glasses I sent you for Christmas! :stuck_out_tongue: Thanks.

East is East and West is West but it looks like they will meet :lol:
If this keeps up we will have to start a mutual respective social forum for owners and drivers.
Gee, you guys will be arranging to have coffee together soon. :shock:
What is happening to the love / hate (love to hate each other) relationship we have got to enjoy here.
Mods, please stop this nice talk between drivers and owners immediately. I can’t handle it :stuck_out_tongue:

Ok let’s get this straightened out here…I am not a DRIVER. I am a former driver, insider, and GM who has retired from the pizza business. I now work in completely differeny industry/field (but still get to hear people complain). However, the pizza businss is something I obviously feel passionate about. The entire argument (which I will not repeat here - it’s around the forum time and time again) is that not only is the delivery job worth at least minimum wage, but also paying employees conpetetive wages ensures the best employees for the company. This is true for any company/industry.

Sorry but I have to disagree that paying the best money gets the best people.
I pay over the award wage and a good car allowance, plus compulsory 9% superannuation after the manadated earnt amount, all paid through the books (no cash in hand / under the counter pay).
This does not get me the best workers.
But as someone shows thet are willing to do that little extra, put in the extra yards and perform above the others then they deservedly get more. They are rewrded for their actions, not rewarded and hoping for these actions.
Some people believe the saying that you pay peanuts you get monkeys but it is also true that you can pay bigger peanuts but only get bigger monkeys.
Read up on Herzbergs theory on motivation and it shows that workers often stay where they are because they way they are respected / treated, they like their work and the oc-workers and money is not a motivation factor.