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5 months and ready to fold help!!

Sorry for leaving you hanging . . .

Thanks for the phone call today, it makes us feel like we aren’t alone and someone out there really does want to help us.

Well, both daughter and her husband husband are gone. They are now working for Papa John’s Pizza again. It’s just myself and Bill running the place. It’s kind of nice having our freedom to do what we want without being bucked by them at every turn. We are trying to slowly dig our way out and it’s going to be a very long process.

We have been doing major door tagging. It’s been bringing in many new customers. We are going to have a Monday night special of $3.99 buffet with purchase of a drink starting March 19th and have been door tagging that the past two weeks and I put it up on our signs today.

We had our first $1300.00 net Sunday last Sunday. However today was about normal. When I left at 5:00 p.m. we were at $450.00 net.

We are still robbing Peter to pay Paul and trying to play catch up on bills. We have exhausted all our personal savings now. So, we need sales to really start booming.

We are trying to make our own dough. We’ve used several recipes - from PMQ and others and it’s still not right. I am very unhappy with our dough and prefer pre-sheets. We did find a company that has some great par bake pre-sheets that are about half the cost of the pre-sheets we were buying from U.S. Foods. The company is Farm Boy. We wished we had known about them from the very beginning.

We are currently trying a pre-sheet from them called a Fat Lip and it is wonderful! I still want our own dough but I want it to be perfect like the pre-sheets. Am I asking for too much?

I’m still trying to get that $60,000.00. It would be our savior in that we can pay off our POS and all our outstanding bills and have money left over for working capital. My husband may even be able to start getting a paycheck. If there is anyone out there who needs a kidney or something, my husband is willing to sell one . . . ha ha . . . no really . . . Does anyone want to buy in as a partner??? lol

Does anyone have any input on Farm Boy, Pocohantas sauces, making your own dough (25 lb. batch at a time).

You all are great and we really appreciate this web site!!! Laura & Bill
 
You should be able to make your own dough. It depends on what thickness and flavor you are going for. The least labor intensive is probably a New York Style Hand tossed crust.

Look for and posts by Patriot’s Pizza, he has given some pretty good dough advice and recipes in the last week.

You can get a really good dough with salt, sugar, yeast, flour, water, and oil. I feel that most people’s problem isn’t with the recipe, but more with the forming process and stretching process.

Pan dough is a little more complicated. Read any magazine articles by Tom Lehman, and find any posts by him as well.

PMQ has some videos by Tom Lehman in their pizza tube part of the site now teaching you how to make your own dough which could be very beneficial to you in the stage you are at right now.

Hope that helps.
 
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1300 sundays? sounds like things are looking up. i don’t make that on sunday and i’ve been in business for 8 years.
 
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Great update!

I think everyone including myself really likes hearing what you are going through.

Let me make yet another observation and I know this is drastic but it makes a point to consider.

I was seriously considering going with a franchise who does buffet and games. I went to the corporate office, toured a store, talked with ownership and got all the documents. I interviewed some managers in other stores and got a feel for the company in question.

I decided against the endeavor and I think part of what you are experiencing is why.

This company had one business model which was similar to Gatti’s and others which was a reasonable price point and a reasonable buffet. Nothing extravagent and keep it simple. Do what you are doing best and get butz in the seats.

That is what I liked about them…it seemed to be great, the simple buffet, good price point and games to offset some fixed costs.

Well I found out they decided to go with a HIGHER price point with all new stores and bump up a few things on the buffet line.

I toured their flagship store and observed the new items on the line and saw what it took labor wise to produce those items and what extra costs were for the added line menu.

I decided after touring the newest store that the concept no longer met what I felt would work and I declined the opportunity.

One of the people I interviewed worked at an older store which didnt have the new items and had a lower price point. He told me in confidence that the extra time and effort to produce the added items was large and to me it wasnt worth it.

Since then, this new ownership is in the middle of selling ALL operations and closed ALL corporate stores…they werent marketing enough and the price point was becomming competitive with the larger chains which offer 2-3x the line items for close to similar price.

My observation is I STILL think you put too much on the buffet line, too many non-pizza items…and your price is too high.

I would run a daily lunch buffet at 3.99 plus drink, every day…cut down the non-pizza items and maximize what you are spending on those items. My suggestion about a ziti is an example…you need a few non-pizza hot items and an ok salad bar, a few dessert items and plenty of fresh pizza.

I know it sounds odd, but you need to add up the cost of the average consumer and see what you are yielding percentage wise per customer…meaning how much does it cost if the average person gets a portion of this and that…or just look at your food cost.

I really think you need to focus on simplifying the menu, increase the people count and also increase delivery/take out.

I also think you can do your own dough…if nothing else there are experts you can contact who can help you located on this site.

😉
 
What a hard decision you all made but good for you. Have confidence in yourselves, trust God. He know Peter and Paul. 🙂

I wouldn’t go around even discussing the matter anymore. Negative energy is wasted time.

As for a your buffet, we don’t offer a buffet but as a consumer I have never understood why someone can’t just seem to get it right. I would pay more for quality.

If your going to do it do it the best you can. Taste your items, keep em fresh. Keep it filled. If your gonna have pizza make em great pizzas so people can sample them.

Oh yeah… GREAT SERVICE. I have found for us that has been the key to success. Our day lunch sales used to be beyond ridiculous, we were lucky to do 400. Now years later we do around 1200 a day. All because of the great and I mean great service we give em.

We pretty much know what they want before they sit down.

We get em in and out. Keep your tables pre bussed for quick turn around your gonna want the seats.

And lastly, go give your hubby a big hug and kiss and tell him he is the best pizza maker/owner you have seen. Mean it!!!

Keep us posted.
 
Great job gob !

We were in a similar situation where we made some bad decisions early on and now we’re trying to play catch-up. Nothing like making something that hard even more difficult by starting off on the wrong foot. We’ll certainly know better for store number 2.

It’s a lot of fun when you get things rolling in the right direction and you can feel a little momentum going in your favor for a change !

Keep up the good work.
 
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good to hear from you.
talk to your u.s.foods rep. about there chefs,tell him you would like to set up a meeting with one.im not sure if they will travel that far south,maybe there are some in your area.check out proof perfect dough,it is pretty good.
 
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You all are so great . . .

As far as U.S. Foods, our nearest one is St. Louis - about an hour and 20 minutes away. We did use their kitchen before we opened - they didn’t have a pizza oven, we had to use a convection oven.

We bought almost all our products from U.S. They required we have a $400.00 minimum order before a truck would come. They also had to special order items for us and it would take weeks to get stuff. We have been waiting for almost a month and a half for our cinnamon spread for our dessert pizzas. Last week we were informed that our minimum order was raised to $500.00. When the rep forgot to call us back for our order two weeks ago, my husband ordered from Middendorf. Our U.S. Foods rep called us the next week 30 minutes before the order was due - Bill had already, again ordered from Middendorf and told our US Food rep that we needed a small order - some Brill products that have to be special ordered - our rep replied that they didn’t do special orders if they were being used as a back-up supplier.

A rep from PFG-Middendorf came in and brought us bunches of samples. We found that they were so much less than US Foods and only required a $150.00 minimum order. They have great product and are willing to do anything. Our cinnamon spread was on the truck today and it DIDN’T have to be special ordered. Then, Farm Boy came to see us - they specialize in pizza and boy do they have some good product - again, lower prices and low minimum order.

We made dough again today - I kept preaching to my employee who was making it that the dough had to be 80 degrees when it was cut and made into dough balls. He let the dough sit to “rest” and when he was making the balls I checked the temp and it was 78 degrees. Our dough is not shaping well, presses to thin for our hand tossed and I don’t think it’s cooking in the middle enough. We’ll see what this batch does.

Because the former place had specialty pizzas on the buffet and customers could request what they wanted on the buffet, we decided to keep one topping pizzas and a specialty pizza on the buffet and if a customer requested a different kind of pizza we told them that for an extra $1.99 we would put that on the buffet. That did not go over at all and we lost customers over it. We have only actually had 3 customers pay the $1.99 since we started that on January 22nd. Today, I made the decision to go ahead and put the requested pizza on the buffet or, we would bring the requested pizza to their table for $1.99 extra.

I really don’t feel that we have too much on our buffet. Pizza, salad bar, baked potatos, 2 pastas, bacon cheddar potato soup and dessert pizza. Of course we change out the soup and sometimes have meatballs or nachos and cheese - depending on the weather or season. The soup is going over really great! Our menu items include subs, wings (hot & bbq), toasted ravioli, our pastas, and of course pizza and bread/cheese sticks.

We have also toyed with the idea of buffet to go as we get this requested a lot and we do have a drive-thru/pick-up window. We had a lady pull up last Friday, was in a big hurry and wanted a buffet to go and all she wanted was a soda and 4 slices of pizza - nothing else and she paid the $6.50 buffet price for it. I think this might be worth looking into.
 
CiCi’s lets you get 6 slices of pizza, 1 tin of salad, 1 tin of pasta & 3 pcs of dessert from the buffet…you don’t get hurt price wise…

They also make an established rotation of pies for the buffet…they alternate 8-12 pies on a rack(red sauce/white sauce)…for instance:

pepperoni
alfredo
sausage
ranch
cheese
spinach afredo
pepperoni
Mac n Cheese
Veg
etc…

good variety on the buffet at all times…

when a customer doesn’t see their favorite on the line, they make a special request, ask the guest how many slices they wish, take those slices out to the guest & put the remaining pie on the buffet…if they want the whole pie, so be it, but with 8-12 pies on the buffet, the selection is always great…
 
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Great reply PatriotsPizza,

I think the failure of a pizza buffet is when they try to expand product line too much and price points get out of line.

Places like CiCis and Gattis are some of the only large survivors because they know what works and what doesnt.

The key points of a buffet is PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA and PRICE POINT.

When you cross either one, then you are doomed for failure. There is a reason you dont see many pizza buffets because they fail to keep product gross margins in check or fail to generate sufficient sales.

If it were me and I was Gob, I would make the weekend a premium buffet, maybe even more than what they do and up the price point, but at lunch and weekdays I would slim down the line and cut the price point.

The failure of a LARGE chain in my area came because of product expansion and a loss of sales due to increased price point. They also failed to market worth a crap.

I hope they work it out but I think the road will be tough because I doubt they get premium pricing on COGS and I have to think they arent completely efficient in operations (not making their own dough etc) and flowing red ink and being 60k in the hole makes it seem even more bleak.

I would also scrap the extra cost for a special request, as a customer that would be a complete turn-off for me and I would probably not return. If your line has limited items and a person cant get what they want, why would they return?

Cut the price point, cut the potato, see if the salad bar could be slimmed down, cut costs by increasing efficiencies and keeping waste down.

Increase sales, market the hell out of a lower price point and drive to your goal via sales…

JMHO
 
You are right . . . we aren’t effecient in operations because we didn’t know what we were doing six months ago and didn’t know about PMQ. Our son-in-law who has been a pizza GM for 13 years was running the show, hence, most of the problems. Working for a franchise and owning your own place are two different things.

We are trying our own dough and it’s not working. The edges are good but it doesn’t cook all the way through. I don’t know what we are doing wrong. We just can’t get it right. I’m going in early tomorrow morning, by myself and try a recipe.

It probably is too late for us to get things back on track. I do know that we have learned a lot in the process. The changes we are making may be too late in the game. But we are going to keep a positive attitude and keep going until the train runs out of steam or builds up momentum. I don’t have time for negative thoughts.
 
I hate to bring up another magazine on a board supported by these fine people, but “Restaurant Startup and Groth” magazine is a good ancillary resource to PMQ. This month they have an article on surviving with all-you-can-eat buffets. they include a dsicussion on prcing philosophies and cost analysis. They have a web site out there somewhere.

PMQ is more directly on point with pizza month in and month out, but the RSUAG people have some good general discussion most issues about businesses and restaurant management.
 
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running a buffet operation and running a sit-down or DelCo are different beasts…

a buffet MUST run on the “butts in chairs” principle, driven by price point…

keep the # of items limited & fresh…use the CiCi’s model if you choose…

start with a simple salad bar - fresh cut salad greens & veggies…keep it simple but attractive…4 dressings, 8-10 items…use big bowls of 2 types of salad greens…

par-cook a curly noodle, like rotini and reheat thru your conveyor oven, in a 1/2 size hotel pan w/a little water, covered…drain & place in a chafer w/a little water…use a tasty but generic red sauce and a white/cream sauce like alfredo, but watch the cost…CiCi’s gets a poly-bag product that I think you can find a like product product thry US Foods…

pick 8-12 pizzas to prepare for the buffet…make a rotation chart…during slow times, make your pies 1/2 & half varieties…

make cinnamon rolls from your basic pizza dough, apple pie pizza and perhaps brownies…

if you feel you must have additional items, to support your price point or volume needs, use breaded/fried 8-cut chicken and potatoes…great customer favs (like Strawhat did yrs ago)…

chances are you are not letting your dough proof correctly and/or making your skins up too far in advance…watch your sugar content in the dough if its browning 2 fast and or your cooking your pies too quickly @ 2 high of a temp…

making dough is easy and cost effective…you can do it…
14 Qts cold water/or 26-28# (from walk-in) put in mixer 1st, then the flour
50# flour
16 oz sugar
12 oz salt
1.75 oz IDY
mix 4 2 minutes
add 4 cups olive oil blend & mix for 10 minutes more…

scale & round and use the next day or up to 3 days later…

you will not be able to use this dough on the same day its made…

if you need to use the dough the same day, you will need to use warmer water, but will still not be able to use it for at least 7 hrs (CiCI method) but I always use mine 2 days later…

you’ll need to proof your dough on the floor for several hours (covered) to get the bake you are looking for…you may need to dock the dough to prevent bubbles, even if you hand toss or use a press…if you use a sheeter, you’ll degas the dough and have a very thin crust…

good luck!
 
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Sorry that I have to keep adding points but there is one or two more I MUST add.

What kind of mixer are you using for the dough?

Let me say that from many years of franchise experience, if you have the basics down you can really do anything to the dough and it will work out. I remember many times not temping water, letting it sit out too long etc, but if you have the right recipe, the right procedure, dough is really easy to deal with.

Are you guys rolling the dough tight? are you topping it with oil after? Are you storing it in the walkin at the right temp? How long are you storing it before rolling?

My other comment…please dont take this the wrong way…but you really should optimize and be efficient with the pizza…and what I mean by that is why are you hand tossing and spending the time for a buffet line? Get a sheeter and get the job done…it might not be the most awesome pizza, but you are serving a buffet and efficiency should rule what you do in every fascet of operations.

I would highly recommend a sheeter and a hobart for the mixer.

Do you cut the mozz or bring it in bagged? There are a zillion ways to cut costs and not sacrifice quality and make you more $$$.
 
We have a Varimixer planatary mixer. We don’t hand toss we have a dough press. We do oil the dough after making it into balls. It is put into our walk-in and the temp is correct. We use bagged moz/provolone mixture of cheese which is currently at $1.74 a pound which we also use on our subs.

Sometimes our dough cooks great and other times it comes out raw in the middle - from the same batch.

We have a proofer but we aren’t sure how to use it since our racks are made sometimes to 24 hours in advance.

We’ve tried bagging the dough balls, we’ve tried just leaving them and nesting them.

If we make a pizza right after we’ve made the dough - it bakes up perfect. If we take it out of the cooler and press it without it warming up, it will bake perfect.

The recipie we are using calls for the dough to proof in the cooler for 24 hours. We take it out, press it, make a rack and put it bake in the cooler until we need it - then we have the problems.

We got this recipe from a fellow PMQ person.
 
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Well that reply to me tells plenty.

First off, good pricing for the cheese, I thought I recalled earlier you saying over 2 bucks a pound and you were considering the high end cheese…glad to hear you arent.

Any reason for pressing the dough, then putting back in the walkin? To me that doesnt make sense. Maybe others do this, but for all the pizza places I have worked over the years, I never pressed into pans and THEN put back into the walkin before use.

I am also REALLY hoping you arent pre-saucing or topping and then putting back in the walkin, that would be terrible.

The experiences I have are either press-out and sheet into pans…those pans stay at room temp and are used for 1hr max at room temp, either that or press as you need and use as you go. I personally think pressing at room temp, then back into the walkin is the wrong way to prep…but maybe others might see differently.

How long after you bring the doughballs out of the walkin are you leaving them out before returning to the walkin? Meaning TOTAL time…time sitting on a tray waiting for usage, prep time and back in the walkin?

I might suggest stopping prepping the pans, try what I suggested where you rollout the dough and have it at room temp for a max time of 1 hr and use as you go…either that or press when you need and use it then.

Over all the years of working at pizza places, I never saw product which was hit or miss unless the oven had an issue or over-topping was an issue. If you are topping the pizzas consistently, proofing for 24 hrs and dont cool down the dough after pressing it, I think you will have better results.

How are sales and operations going? Have you considered modifying the line and dropping the price point? That other thread here about what is on a buffet line should speak volumes to you. The guy charging 8 bucks a head has a HUGE selection and as others mentioned, keep it to pizza or expand it to be considered more than a pizza buffet. I would take off soup, baked pots, keep one pasta on the line and maximize sales by dropping the price point, at least mid week. If you wanted an expanded buffet and higher price point, then sell it as a WEEKEND buffet with the extra goodies and higher prices.
 
I make as i go… on busy nights i presauce and cheese them and rack them and leave them @ room temp. They don’t stay out more the a 1/2 hour. saves a little time for the rush!
 
Wow, now I have really learned something again. . .

We are doing it the way the old Papa’s Pizza to Go was doing it. Of course we were using pre-sheets until a couple of weeks ago when we decided to try making our own dough.

We do press the dough, dock it, put it on screens, top it and put it on racks and then back into the cooler. We bring the racks out as we need them. We usually have 3 racks in the cooler for Mon thru Thurs - then Thursday night thru Sat night we make sure that 4 to 5 racks are in the cooler each night for the next day.

Labor wise and time wise, I don’t see how we could actually make and press the pizzas as we need them, but I’m willing to give it a try if we are doing it wrong using home made dough.

We aren’t just buffet either we are carry out, delivery, dine in with a good, small menu. Quite frankly, for some reason our subs are really starting to sell here lately. Lunch today we sold 7 subs (we currently close at 2:00pm on Mondays). Our deliveries are getting better also - we had 4 deliveries between 11:30 a.m. and 2:00 p.m.

As I said in earlier posts - next Monday we start our $3.99 buffet (with purchase of a drink) on Monday nights only. I’ve been toying with the idea of $4.49 on Tuesdays, $4.99 on Wednesdays, $5.49 on Thursdays and then regular price on Friday, Saturday and Sunday - Evening Buffet only. Do you think that’s too much for the customer to understand?

We are also a self serve restaurant. I’ve been thinking about seating the customers in the evenings, handing menus to them and getting their drinks for them. This means I would have to up labor for waitresses, but I think it might help our menu purchasing and all the stealing from customers.

As it stands now, the customer comes in, pays first and then finds their own seat gets their plates, forks, etc from a buffet table. We had a bunch of high school kids come in yesterday evening and then 3 more came in a few minutes later and went straight to their friends table. They ended up having their friends get them plates of food. When I went back there to talk to them, they ran off and out the side door.

You all need to understand that our restaurant was formerly Papa’s Pizza to Go and that’s the way they operated - we didn’t change a whole lot and it was almost turnkey when we took over. Some customers still think that we are Papa’s and try to argue with us when we tell them that we don’t have a specific item on our menu. We have to explain to them that we are Gob-Pile Pizza now and that we took over in September of 2006.

With everything that I have been reading, we still have a lot of changes that need to be made before we can get sales up.
 
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