Charles' PJ Delivery Experience

[NicksPizza]

gregster:

"Hourly wage: 9 hours @ $5.00 an hour. "

In this example, are you claiming a 'tip credit"?

I believe the correct response is . . . obviously!
gregster:

Do you feel your business is exempt from the FLSA? That may in fact be the case. If you do believe that is the case, please explain why. If a business is in fact exempt from the FLSA, then of course the laws listed therein would not apply. One would have to fall back on state and local laws for further guidance.

Yes, I believe I am. I think I can leave that to your crack legal accumen to figure out. Perhaps I have consulted a labor attorney and gotten an opinion (see all my suggestions to do just that). If you put your mind and copy/paste wizardy to it, you’ll find out the exepmtion.

 

[system]

NicksPizza:

gregster:

"Hourly wage: 9 hours @ $5.00 an hour. "

In this example, are you claiming a 'tip credit"?

I believe the correct response is . . . obviously!
gregster:

Do you feel your business is exempt from the FLSA? That may in fact be the case. If you do believe that is the case, please explain why. If a business is in fact exempt from the FLSA, then of course the laws listed therein would not apply. One would have to fall back on state and local laws for further guidance.

Yes, I believe I am. I think I can leave that to your crack legal accumen to figure out. Perhaps I have consulted a labor attorney and gotten an opinion (see all my suggestions to do just that). If you put your mind and copy/paste wizardy to it, you’ll find out the exepmtion.

Does your business accept credit cards? Are any of your ingredients from out of state? If that is the case, perhaps your crack labor attorney hasn’t done his homework.

EDIT: Oh, I do see that your business accepts Credit Cards:

Edited by Moderator

NicksPizza:

If you put your mind and copy/paste wizardy to it, you’ll find out the exepmtion.

Here is some more of the ‘copy/paste’ wizardry you seem to be fond of:

http://www.dol.gov/elaws/esa/flsa/scope/ee2.asp

Engagement in Interstate Commerce

Employees are covered by the Fair Labor Standards Act (FLSA) on an individual basis when they are engaged in interstate or foreign commerce on the job. Interstate commerce means any work involving or related to the movement of persons or things (including intangibles, such as information) across state lines or from foreign countries.

Examples of covered employees who are engaged in interstate commerce include:

An employee such as an office or clerical worker who uses a telephone, facsimile machine, the U.S. mail, or a computer e-mail system to communicate with persons in another state.
An employee who drives or flies to another state while performing his or her job duties.
An employee who unloads goods which came from an out of state supplier.
An employee such as a cashier or waitress who uses an electronic device which authorizes a credit card purchase.
Employees of businesses that are engaged in interstate commerce or instrumentalities of interstate commerce are also generally covered. An instrumentality of interstate commerce includes railroads, highways and city streets, pipe lines, telephone and/or electrical transmission lines, airports, bus/truck/steamship terminals, radio or TV stations and river/streams/waterways over which interstate or foreign commerce regularly moves.

Employees who perform support functions for these instrumentalities of interstate commerce are so closely related to interstate commerce that they are also considered to be engaged in interstate commerce. It does not matter who employs these workers - it is the work that is important. Examples of covered employees who are also considered to be engaged in interstate commerce include:

A security worker at an airport.
A custodian who works for a janitorial contractor which cleans a bus terminal.
A laborer or mechanic who performs maintenance or repair work or improvements to a city street.
These are examples and are not intended to include all possible employees who are engaged in interstate commerce.

Can you still get a refund for that advice you got?

 

[system]

Wizzle Wassell:

gregster:

One of the biggest misconceptions I am trying to correct is the idea that tipped employees are exempt from minimum wage laws. It is only permissible to pay less that minimum wage (where allowed) if BEFORE hand you tell employees that you will be claiming a tip wage credit against their tips.

So Gregster are you going to answer the previous/numerous points I’ve raised about Dewars example? You so sure PJ’s is in violation why no answer when somone provides a clear example???

In the example Charles gave, even though his math was wrong, the pay he received was still below the FLSA minimum wage, especially when you take into account the mileage losses.

 

[papajgirl]

Okay, I by no means am any sort of expert, nor do I claim to be.

However, I DO work at PJ’s.

My husband, last year, offered to help the owner by driving when others called in…but because of his many years of experience and lack of needing to have his hand held to do anything…the owner begged him to be on the schedule, so he has been since February of 2008.

So, this is how it works for my husband when he works.

Min wage = $6.55/per hour is received
Driver reimbursement = $1.00 per order, goes up to $2.00 per order when gas prices increase. Outside of town, $1.50 to $2.00 per order, regardless of gas prices.

Friday was slow, but I’ll use it for my example, because it will be easier on my brain. haha

Time in = 3 hours
Deliveries = 4 in town, 7 out of town.
Delivery Reimbursement = $4.00 in town, $12.00 for out of town (4 in the $1.50 range, 3 in the $2.00 range).
Total = $16.00 (Driver Reimbursement)
Tips = $13.75

If you take driver reimbursement plus tips, that’s $29.75. That’s just shy of $10.00 per hour in itself. Add his minimum wage, and it’s just shy of $17.00 an hour.

Consider as a shift manager I make $7.50 an hour.

I just don’t see where you’re coming from about the Big 3 paying under minimum wage unless it’s strictly franchise specific.

 

[system]

Reimbursement is NOT income or wages. It is faulty logic to think of or represent it that way. It is payment for money you already spent for bringing your licensed, insured, maintained, oiled, fueled and paid for vehicle to work for your employer.

Deliveries = 4 in town, 7 out of town.
Delivery Reimbursement = $4.00 in town, $12.00 for out of town (4 in the $1.50 range, 3 in the $2.00 range).
Total = $16.00 (Driver Reimbursement)

papajgirl, in the example you give, how many miles were traveled for that reimbursement? I have a feeling it was more than 29 miles.

 

[Uncle_Doug]

That is an uncommonly generous pay structure for a Papa Johns, pjgirl. Although its been done to death in recent threads, let me help illustrate to you the picture at PJs:

Most Papa Johns drivers were lucky to be making in the $5-6/hour range. Then the minimum wage increase hit (Federal min wage of 6.55/hr.). Since labor costs went up on their INSIDE staff, many PJs have cut back driver pay. There are many stores now where drivers are paid a split wage. $4.00 an hour on deliveries and $6.55 while in store. To compensate, their reimbursement was raised slightly. So they went from, for example, $6.00/hr plus $0.90/run to $4.00/hr plus $1.30/run. This helped Papa Johns on 2 different levels. On one level it gets them closer to a fair vehicle reimbursement, ignoring the sub minimum wage aspect. On another level, it means they pay less in payroll taxes. Of course, to make up for the $2.00/hr paycut, while recieving a .40/run raise, the driver would have to take 5 runs per hour to be even, which we know most PJs drivers come nowhere near doing. But lets be generous and say they did, PJs is still paying them the same amount, but saving money on payroll expenses since they have switched more of the pay from hourly to reimbursement, which doesn’t get taxed for SS, Unemployment, etc.

They did this in the middle of the summer when gas was $4.00/gallon, so by sleight of hand they tried to fool drivers into thinking they were getting more reimbursement while they were really receiving a paycut.

Since the cost of having delivery drivers on the road just went down, that also means PJs can staff more drivers, meaning less runs for each driver, meaning another paycut.

The problem still remains: Drivers taking a very low volume of orders across a too-large delivery area. $1.30/run may be fair if you are driving 2.5 miles per delivery (which I disagree with gregster about delivery radius, you can have a 4 mile radius and average 2.5 per delivery, it is the AVERAGE PER RUN that matters) - But Papa Johns drivers are driving 4, 5, even 6+ miles per delivery running 15 mile singles out to the boonies.

Your husband seemed to have leverage with a franchise owner and got a good deal on pay. Most drivers aren’t lucky enough to make their own terms with the employer on compensation. Do the other drivers get that same compensation? If they do, your Papa Johns is better than some of the more nefarious franchisees out there.

As high as his reimbursement is, I’m hoping the “In town” zone is around 4 miles and the “out of town” goes no further than 6 or so, otherwise even a high reimbursement becomes insufficient.

 

[system]

Uncle Doug, that was a very fair and accurate way of describing what has and is occurring at my PJ’s and the hundred or so other stores owned by PJ United.

“I disagree with gregster about delivery radius, you can have a 4 mile radius and average 2.5 per delivery,”

I don’t recall ever saying that. That doesn’t make sense to me either.

At my store the average distance per delivery is over 4 miles. My current ‘per delivery’ reimbursement is $1.08. New drivers are paid 83 cents per run. (How much sense does that make?)

 

[Piper]

gregster:

Uncle Doug, that was a very fair and accurate way of describing what has and is occurring at my PJ’s and the hundred or so other stores owned by PJ United.

Gregster, my local PJ’s is not owned by PJ United, but they have still gone to the $4.00/hr + tip credit pay policy. How did that happen? Did PJ corporate send out some sort of advice to franchise owners to do this?

 

[Uncle_Doug]

Im not sure, Ive followed your threads for a while and for some reason I remember you saying something to the effect of “I hope your delivery radius is only 0.75 miles if you are paying 90 cents”, since the round trip would be 1.5 miles. Maybe I hallucinated it

 

[NicksPizza]

gregster:

Does your business accept credit cards? Are any of your ingredients from out of state? If that is the case, perhaps your crack labor attorney hasn’t done his homework.

EDIT: Oh, I do see that your business accepts Credit Cards:

http://www.grantvillenicks.com/Documents/Menu.pdf

Careful of hubris, Gregster. Your emotions may be getting ahead of you. I did bring this exact issue to my attorney when consulting. He and I both did our homework. You will find in a separate post that NONE of my wage-earning employees unload anything from out of state delivery . . . or run credit cards. Seems we may be in compliance with this whole interstate commerce thing AND exemption standards of FLSA after all. :shock:
gregster:

Can you still get a refund for that advice you got?

Not needed. You are letting your pride and rage lead you down roads you don’t know about. You can cast wide aspertions, but use caution in pointing fingers at ALL individuals here. Difference between a person with a chip on the shoulder and a conscientious business owner seems to be working to do what is productive and right for all parties involved. I wil not take advantage of my employees to make a couple bucks . . . nor would my employees “chop down the tree that gives them the fruit.”

We will make mistakes in running our shop . . . and will make corrections as we always have. Get to know some of us and our business philosophies, and you might very well be surprised at what you find. Hubris is not a valuabe job skill, regardless of position as owner, management or laborer. I have learned that lesson over and again through my working career.

 

[Registered_Guest]

papajgirl:

Deliveries = 4 in town, 7 out of town.
Tips = $13.75

:shock:

Tip avg was $1.25? I’d have a mutiny on my hands if that were the case at my stores…

 

[dman66]

Looks to me gregster is reaching desperate measures here, now grasping at straws…

He’s getting a little hostile there Nick, linking your shop & all…I feel this is extremely rude & invading behavior to do so without your approval Nick…

Do I need to point it out again?..

Here I go…

Gregster makes 4 bucks an hour on the road…I believe if not mistaken he says he averages 3 runs an hour, about 1 buck a run in mileage & his average run distance is 4 miles round trip…

Thats a total pay package of 13 an hour, not counting his pay he gets when not on the road, which I believe is min wage if not mistaken…

Lets say conservatively his total pay package mile tips wage and all ends up being a conservative (probably move) 14 an hour…

.55 cents a ( using the IRA rate) mile , multipled by the 12 delivery miles he averages an hour = 6.60…

Minus 6.60 in miles from his 14 bucks an hour and you still have 7.40 an hour…

So please anyone else than gregster, since I myself find gregster’s (questionable) credibility always one sided …Can anyone else here show me where this PJ’s min wage violation is, with regards to them implementing the “tip credit” rules?..

Thank you…

 

[system]

In thread: Re: paying delivery driver
gregster :

There are indi owners here on this board that pay less than minimum wage, and have been doing so for quite some time.

Dewar's Pizza Bakery:

I am not sure that indies are paying less than minimum. That is a PJ innovation.

Daddio:

Be very careful with this. Unless you have documented proof of this I suggest you back off.

NicksPizza:

My. Does that really happen? I doubt this will make the quoted material in the special interest website. My weekend driver for last weekend, slower Friday/Saturday nights (we are small and use only one driver on weekends):

Hourly wage: 9 hours @ $5.00 an hour…

Documented Proof. ^^^

 

[Daddio]

gregster:

In thread: Re: paying delivery driver
gregster :

There are indi owners here on this board that pay less than minimum wage, and have been doing so for quite some time.

Dewar's Pizza Bakery:

There are indi owners here on this board that pay less than minimum wage, and have been doing so for quite some time.

Daddio:

Be very careful with this. Unless you have documented proof of this I suggest you back off.

NicksPizza:

My. Does that really happen? I doubt this will make the quoted material in the special interest website. My weekend driver for last weekend, slower Friday/Saturday nights (we are small and use only one driver on weekends):

Hourly wage: 9 hours @ $5.00 an hour…

Documented Proof. ^^^

gregster

Not only are you Hijacking, this thread the above IS NOT documented proof it is hear say. I urge you to consider the difference. If there were anyone here that came right out and said they paid their drivers less than minimum wage that may be considered documented proof but what you have quoted is nowhere near that.

And where is the rest of Nick’s post? I have a real problem when there is … in a quote. To do that is very misleading. Let me give you an example of what i mean.

Jesus thought for a moment and then replied, “He that is without sin among you, let him…â€

This could be mistaken to mean Jesus was encouraging people to sin. When taken in context

Jesus thought for a moment and then replied, “He that is without sin among you, let him cast the first stone at her.â€
it means judge yourself before you punish someone else.

Please make the effort to be complete in quoting sources you use to back your point.

 

[system]

It is not “hearsay”, it is FIRST PERSON information! The person making the statement is a position to know full well what the pay is.

As far as how I quote, I have only included the part of the post relevant to the point I am making. One need not print the entire bible, or even an entire chapter to quote from it. Besides, the entire post in it’s original context is available in THIS thread where anyone should have already read it, or if not may go back and read it in it’s entirety whenever and as often as they please. Furthermore, the excerpted information is a statement of a rate of pay. I have not changed the meaning of the statement by removing that statement from the rest of the original post. The hourly wage paid by the employer remains the same whether or not the rest of the post surrounds it or not.

More info on quoting here: How much should I quote?

As to ‘hijacking the thread’, when the other thread was locked I was left with no option there to refute the statement of my alleged missteps. As this thread contained the ‘proof’ that supported my statement, it was the second best choice, and best available option to back up my claim.

The fact that my post remains here tells me that after review, my statement was found to have ‘documented proof’, so if that is the case, why was the other thread locked? Leaving it locked without my being allowed to refute the claim of wrongdoing implies that I have made a false claim when I have not. It is worse than making a false claim about someone else here, because it carries the weight of a ‘moderators’ ‘unbiased’ review, and leaves very little option for redress or explanation. IN MY OPINION, locking the other thread after warning me is WORSE than if I had made a false claim because it gives me no option in that thread to refute the claim or even defend my comments.

 

[paul7979]

Hourly wage: 9 hours @ $5.00 an hour…

Documented Proof. ^^^

Gregster as you are the minimum wage expert, I’ll ask this of you? What’s the tipped employee minimum wage requirements of the state of Georgia? Are you sure you have your “documented proof” still?

 

[Daddio]

I locked the other thread because it also had been hijacked. Should I go clean it up? You need to start your own thread if you want to continue your repetitive monologue.

As far as your reference to how much you should quote you missed the boat there.

1. Excerpt those fragments carefully!
   Quoting the words of others carries a big responsibility. Misquoting misrepresents the ideas of others.

Here is information from Nick’s post that does not support your arguement but is quite relivant to the facts

NicksPizza:

Total compensation of wages, tips, and delivery fees: $179.00
Less standard mileage deduction: $41.25
Net compensation: $137.75
Wage per hour: $15.30 . . . . MORE THAN DOUBLE FEDERAL MINIMUM

We are all aware of your position on driver compensation and minimum wage. Your stance on this has been completely covered in several post. The posts are informative as to various places members can look to find information. The problem as I see it is the constant Hi Jacking of threads that have even a hint of your agenda.

Take this thread for example. The topic here is to show what experience Charles is having as a driver for PJ. The results would either show that your experiences are either supported or not.

I am trying as a moderator to keep this forum a place where people can come for help with their business. Anyone who feels that I am not a fair moderator is more than welcome to ask that I step down and I will gladly do so.

 

[papajgirl]

You are correct, our PJ is NOT a PJ UNITED owned company.

It and the 4 others I speak of are privately owned franchises.

But yes, I represented the pay EXACTLY as our drivers are paid in this store, and the other 4.

 

[papajgirl]

LOL VERY slow night, and overall, our area has very “cheap” customers in the way of tipping.

I mean, that was the average you gave…he’d love to get $1.25 PER delivery in tips…actually, that night, he got 2 $5.00 tips, then a $2.00 and a $1.75…the rest were stiffs.

But, we are also VERY close to a very large town, and I think that has a lot to do with it, too.
Registered Guest:

papajgirl:

Deliveries = 4 in town, 7 out of town.
Tips = $13.75

:shock:

Tip avg was $1.25? I’d have a mutiny on my hands if that were the case at my stores…