Cooking Pizza In A Convection Oven

[boatnut]

Wizzle Wassell:

Boatnut
If you do have a house style with more toppings then for a basic stand point yes - you’re going to need more heat/time than someone with much less loaded pies. In exactly the same way that thin crust pizza’s require less time than deep pan.

c) they are able to deal with the loaded/unloaded (within reason) pie problem.

Hope this helps

Wiz

? Seems to me like the above is exactly what I am saying. As previously noted our pies range in topping load is NOT within reason. If conveyors did in fact have the ability to cook a loaded pie (like ours) and a basic pie the same then shouldn’t BOTH my pies been either “just about done” or BOTH been “wet and almost raw” ? Your argument would have been proven if they both came out cooked to the same level. They were not. That neither were cooked correctly is of no consequence, the point is they cooked differently.
At a certain point it has to be out of the scope of the most high tech ovens adjustability to compensate for two different products. We produce that big a spread in product. (Thin crust whole grain sometimes requested WITHOUT cheese thru deep pan 4lb behemoths).Thus it follows that a conveyor oven would not work for us. I fully understand that IF we produced a more standardised product, IF we were large enough to require two or more ovens set to different speeds/temp, IF I was unable to get cooking staff that couldn’t run anything other than a conveyor then a conveyor would be the answer ( as it is for the majority of the chains for the above reasons ).
Believe me, if I could have found a conveyor that overcame the above, used no more than 60Amps single phase 240v, had the ability to produce 18 14" pies in 20 minutes minimum and take not an inch more in total floorspace (including belt overhang) than my old deck oven I would have bought it!

 

[Charles]

You can change the cooking characteristics of the conveyor oven by choosing screens, disks, pans, etc. If you sell a lot of two very different types of pizzas (and I am not talking about “loaded” versus “cheese only”) then you can have one belt or oven running at a different setting.

Breakfast is about ready here, so I do not have time to add much more. A conveyor may not work for you. But I think you need to get some more information from George or Tom first. This is almost turning into an argument and you do not have all the data.

 

[NicksPizza]

boatnut:

? Seems to me like the above is exactly what I am saying. As previously noted our pies range in topping load is NOT within reason. If conveyors did in fact have the ability to cook a loaded pie (like ours) and a basic pie the same then shouldn’t BOTH my pies been either “just about done” or BOTH been “wet and almost raw” ? <>

Believe me, if I could have found a conveyor that overcame the above, used no more than 60Amps single phase 240v, had the ability to produce 18 14" pies in 20 minutes minimum and take not an inch more in total floorspace (including belt overhang) than my old deck oven I would have bought it!

You make some interesting observations about both your pies being undercooked differently. Then, I think the conversation just shifted at the end.

The assertion on the conveyor side seems to be that the ovens are ridiculously customizable for many different applications, including a split belt or two belt speeds in order to accomplish the task you set before them. A 32" split belt at two speeds in an oven adjusted for the pies should make high volume a low risk issue.

Your assertion seems to be that no conveyor ovens out there can accomplish the baking of two heavily topped pies, with what will in reality become a thick insulating layer of cheese (my words), of differing composition.

I think the assertions come together and produce this outcome:

1. Many, if not most, single conveyor ovens with one configuration and one belt speed will struggle to cook two pizzas identically with one pound of cheese that includes one with toppings tucked under the blanket of cheese. they will hit the same problem that the decks do in heating through that cheese. Convestions ovens will use moving air to increase the heat transfer to the food material by continuously removing the insulating temperature differential space between the negative BTU and the positive BTU pressures, just like our coolers work. Increases the delta-T efficiency.
2. Conveyor oven operators solve this dilemma using options available to those ovens that are not available to the deck users: varying pans styles, split belts, double stacks with different configurations and so on. they may even be able, with expert assistance and a lot of experimental pizzas, set an oven up to do exactly what you want it to do with the two styles of pies, and varying styles of crust. Master Lehmann will have to comment on all of that. Deck ovens can cook hotter or cooler . . . longer or shorter times.
3. The test oven was, by stipulation on both sides, not set up to accomplish the task your were asking it to do with your two pizzas. I saw it sort of like using a hammer to drive a screw and drive a lag bolt. It will do both if you have to, but not so very effectively. Not a perfect analogy since the impingement oven is adjustable and modifiable to more closely meet the task at hand.
4. Could be something I missed entirely.

 

[Charles]

NicksPizza:

Deck ovens can cook hotter or cooler . . . longer or shorter times.

By moving them around inside to cooler spots? I think that is why we see so much inconsistency in pies from independents with decks. Sure, if they have an experienced pizzaiolo running the oven, usually the owner of a small shop, you will get a consistent product. But invariably I get an undercooked or overcooked pie whenever I try out new places and the owner is not there.

Also, the deck cannot direct heat to the top of the pie. This is one of the big points in my choice of impingement over deck (or conveyor granite oven like the Picard). No soggy veggie pies.

 

[boatnut]

Firstly I have nothing to gain and all to lose by getting into an argument with my fellow independants. If I have come across as looking for an argument, I apologise. That said, I have allways understood that given the available space and electrical or gas capacity , that a stack of conveyors would do the job. I think what you missed Nick was my limitations re these things dictated my choice of ovens. I could not run one 32" conveyor in my shop. We would literally have to duck under the belt to get to the cooler!! We have 537sq ft broken into three areas. The “kitchen” that has a full size Hobart (8sq ft), 96" make table (24sq ft), three door cooler (24sq ft), cutting table (15sq ft), storage shelves/counter top (26sq ft) and oven measures 170sq ft. That leaves 79sq ft for oven and space between everything and walkways! As it is we have to store boxes etc at our house.
Again, 60amp single phase 240v MAX, no propane or gas allowed,minimum 18 14" pies in 20 minutes, not an inch bigger than a deck oven.
I have nothing against conveyors. I rightly or wrongly decided after six months of research that the only oven capable of filling our requirements was the convection style PIZ6. The original question was “Cooking Pizza in convection oven?” . Just wanted to share what I perceived to be the reasons I chose the convection style oven I did. Clive.

 

[Charles]

I, for one, misunderstood your intent. With those crazy small dimensions of your shop I am not sure there are many alternatives. In theory, I think I would prefer a convection over a deck for cooking… but honestly cannot comment as I have never used the Doyon oven (heck, never even seen one.) Since you are limited by floorspace, it usually means putting stuff stacked as much as possible including the ovens. I don’t think this is possible with the Doyon but if it meets your production it may not be necessary either.

 

[Wizzle_Wassell]

boatnut:

Wizzle Wassell:

Boatnut
c) they are able to deal with the loaded/unloaded (within reason) pie problem.

Hope this helps

Wiz

? Seems to me like the above is exactly what I am saying. As previously noted our pies range in topping load is NOT within reason. If conveyors did in fact have the ability to cook a loaded pie (like ours) and a basic pie the same then shouldn’t BOTH my pies been either “just about done” or BOTH been “wet and almost raw” ? Your argument would have been proven if they both came out cooked to the same level. They were not.

‘They were not’???

My point was that you were trying to cook YOUR pies in an oven set up (in your words) for ‘products way closer to the big chains’ i.e. way different to your own pies. Even with the best will in the world that oven isn’t likely to cook any of your pies correctly as the oven isn’t configured (temp/time) for your pies. Exactly the same is likely to happen if you take your pie to someone with a deck oven cooking a NY thin crust and you tell them to cook YOUR pie exactly the same way (time etc) as theirs.

Now you tell us that you have other constraints and that your products vary hugely - well thats a whole different scenario than your original post. If you are as you say cooking extremely different pies, with huge variations of weight/toppings, thin crusts and deep pans etc then sure - stick to a deck oven BUT you will definitely need an oven tender with a LOT of experience. Even with a very experienced oven tender with such an extreme range of products I would suggest that anyone who has (as you state) ‘anything other than a very basic knowledge’ is leaving themselves wide open to a significant problem with product consistency.

If conveyors were the best product for everyone then everyone would have them - which of course they don’t but in terms of being able to cook a range of pies with or without toppings in the same oven, quickly and consistently and without the need of experienced oven tenders well look no further than a conveyor.

The only way you will ever be able to tell if a conveyor is likely to be any good for cooking your pies is to get to a test kitchen or somewhere where you can adjust and play with the settings.

 

[boatnut]

Check my second post. Check my answer to your first post. I outlined my constraints in both. Lets agree to disagree , both produce higher quality pizza than the chains and both concentrate on making money no matter what oven we use. Clive.

 

[NicksPizza]

Dewar's Pizza Bakery:

NicksPizza:

Deck ovens can cook hotter or cooler . . . longer or shorter times.

By moving them around inside to cooler spots? I think that is why we see so much inconsistency in pies from independents with decks. Sure, if they have an experienced pizzaiolo running the oven, usually the owner of a small shop, you will get a consistent product. But invariably I get an undercooked or overcooked pie whenever I try out new places and the owner is not there.

Also, the deck cannot direct heat to the top of the pie. This is one of the big points in my choice of impingement over deck (or conveyor granite oven like the Picard). No soggy veggie pies.

you are right on about top heat directing. I was saying in the above quoted post that deck oven have basically two adjustments . . . the “wishostat” and the length of time I leave the pie in the oven. Not much other adjusting possible to affect the baking.

If boatnut is now saying that there is not a conveyor solution that will fit his shop and still cook the various styles of pies he’s discussed, then he is probably right on target. He knows his shop far better than I would ever think of.

 

[Wizzle_Wassell]

boatnut:

Check my second post. Check my answer to your first post. I outlined my constraints in both. Lets agree to disagree , both produce higher quality pizza than the chains and both concentrate on making money no matter what oven we use. Clive.

sorry, you are correct, I didn’t re read back that far.

 

[Patriot_sPizza]

The semi-costly solution!!!

As the self-proclaimed CTX expert…

I have a 4 conveyor set-up - unusual @ best & a electrical power monster, but…

the CTX is much narrower than a traditional MM 360…

Once it powers up, the power requirement is manageable & cost efficient…

one unique feature of the CTX (besides it being whisper quiet) is the ability to manage/set the different heat zones…you have 4…top & bottom entrance & top & bottom exit…

combine that w/4 different belts…

I have 1 belt just to bake bread…

my other belts are set all the same…

you could have one conveyor set with a 700 top temp @ entrance, w/a 500 bottom temp…let that cook, say 4 min till the next zone, then the temp could drop to say 600/400 temp zone for another 4 minutes…

I have found that the infrared system cooks different/“better” in some respects than an impingement system…

One fact Tom L. has brought up in the past, is that pizza seems 2 develop better “flavor” when cooked a bit longer/lower temp…

I am no longer worried about a 4 minute pie, but a great tasting 7 minute fully developed pie…

the CTX is not 4 everyone, mostly due to power requirements, but if 3 phase power is available, it is an economical option…they appear on ebay from time 2 time @ a decent price…repairs can be a pain but most repairs are due to metal/wire fatigue…parts are readily available, but trained service personal may not be…

 

[wiseguy]

The Doyon PIZ 6 that Boatnut is referring to is what I also use. I guess it can be thought of as a convection oven. I think of it as a deck oven though. It uses the jet air to bake but also to keep the decks hot. To me it si the best of both worlds…not problems with pooling…not cold spots or long warm up intevals…no belt backing up if something needs to stay in a little longer. It really is a great oven. Don’t knock until you try it. Does the oven in the original post have baking “decks” or is it a bigger version of what I have at home?

Love my Doyon,

Godspeed,
Mike

 

[George_Mills]

Hi guys:

It is so, that pizzas of vastly different sizes and multiple or few toppings can be baked in an air impingement conveyor oven at the same time and temperature. It is also so that a pizza, at some point, can grow in size and toppings to where that item will require more bake time than the more conventional pizzas.

We have clients that address that situation by having a double deck or triple stack oven or have a split belt on one deck. In those scenarios a whole deck can be set to operate at higher temp or longer bake time and/or one deck can have half the belt moving slower.

There are some pizzas so thick and some with an upper crust, that they are usually baked in the revolving reel tray style bakery ovens. Most for twenty minutes or more.

George Mills

 

[George_Mills]

Hi wise guy and boat nut;

The Doyon PIZ 6 sounds like a very interesting item.

Do those ovens bake pizzas of varying sizes, thickness and with varying toppings using the same time and temperature?

I guess the temperature would remain constant so perhaps my question should be, does it take longer to bake multiple topping or different size pizzas?

Are your ovens equipped with multiple timers? Apparently up to 6 timers can be had as an option?

George Mills

 

[boatnut]

Hi George, to answer your question… yes, we set the timer for 9 min at 475f for all pizzas, regardless of size, with the exception of the thin crust cheese only ( 7 min ) and the previously mentioned 4lb loaded (12min). We cook a deep pan style pizza in stacking 1 1/4" deep pans. The oven is actually designed for use with perforated screens and then “deck” the pizza to finish. Cooking this way will produce a fully cooked product in 7 min. I tried this with a perf screen and found the factory suggested “decking” of the pie is not required. I have changed out the middle perforated heavy nickel plated rack for an open wire rack. Thought being to promote air flow and reduce need to “turn” or “shake” wings and also to even out cooking of pastas. Seems to work. That said, pizza cooks exactly the same (in our pans) on rack or deck. Did make a positive difference to the wings and pasta though.
We do not seem to have any hot spots and do not have to rotate or move pies around. Having three decks that are lit up like a ball diamond (in comparison to our old cave like deck oven) at eye level really is a huge benefit.

I enquired when I ordered the oven about additional timers. Doyon quoted me $1,500 each!! Understand that the timer is merely a timer. It does NOT remove the pizzas, cut and box them and call out “DELIVERY UP” lol…
I told them I might look stupid, however, I’m not. We bought two digital memory style timers for $20 each and applied them with velcro. Works 100% ,for $40 we now have a dedicated timer for each deck.

Our monthly average out the door time dropped by 14 minutes according to our pos after installing the new oven. On a busy Friday ( $2,000 is busy for us, open 4-10) we now avg around 24 minutes. Used to be 46min on a Friday. I have called a large amount of our customers and asked how there pizza was tonight. All responded positively with a couple commenting " what did you change? seems like it was cooked better".

Now the negatives… Noisy and way hotter in kitchen compared to the Bakers pride 504 deck. Thats it. No experience with a conveyor so do not know if would have same issue? Remember, we have no extractor hood in kitchen. I looked at a possible second location today and would install same oven for whatever thats worth.
3 yr newbie… Clive.

 

[wa_dave]

Daddio:

Boatnut

… I am lucky to find staff that will show up for their shift and can read the bills to make the pizzas let alone make a judgement call as to when the pizza is done.

Now I know where all my staff have gone.

Dave

 

[George_Mills]

Thanks Boatnut:

I appreciate the info on the Piz 6 oven.

George Mills