Re-Thinking Delivery Charges Off Topic

[system]

Re-Thinking Delivery Charges

pizzapirate:

PPG2270:

we both know that this charge is free and clear money for the shop and has nothing to do with the tip or mileage.

Wow! There is “free and clear” money to be made? No overhead, taxes or anything? I think we’re all going to be in trouble if these guys ever get around to opening their own shops.

Yes sir, “free and clear” money. The shop does nothing to earn the delivery charge. It is simply a fee, free and clear. If your overhead is such that menu prices do not cover the bills, raise the prices. That is the traditional way of doing things.

 

[system]

Re: Re-Thinking Delivery Charges the off topic part
Wizzle Wassell:

PPG2270:

It truly is a coincidence. I have been reading Gregster’s posts for some time now, and do indeed share many of his ideas, which are true. I am slowly learning the forum, but as far as hijacking is concerned, it is not intentional. I have quoted previous posts and moved the conversation along. I speak only what I feel is the truth, and if that is too much for some folks to handle, I will not apologize. I will apologize for being new to the forum and therefore messing up on which threads which to post, but not for my message. I speak the truth, and I do so without reservation.

You share his style, his posting habits and despite being told by several members, an uncanny ability to take at least one thread about ‘delivery charge’ into a discussion about minimum wage and tipping. As you say you are slowly learning so to help speed it up maybe stick to the subject being discussed - that would help.

No one is asking you to apologize. You say YOU speak the truth? and when other post a different perspective they are speaking… what? Just because YOU say something is true doesn’t make it so.

By all means contribute to the topic in hand but we’ve already had someone try to push mw/tipping issues down our throats and they’re no longer here. Hopefully that advice will help you learn more quickly as well.

Ok ok ok…but I said I speak what I FEEL is the truth, a little different from saying my stance is the ONLY way. I am sure that everyone feels they are speaking the truth. There is no point in not doing so. If by sharing Gregster’s style you mean an I am intelligent driver tired of the way the industry has declined for drivers, then yes, I share his style.

 

[Wizzle_Wassell]

Re: Re-Thinking Delivery Charges the off topic part
PPG2270:

Ok ok ok…but I said I speak what I FEEL is the truth, a little different from saying my stance is the ONLY way. I am sure that everyone feels they are speaking the truth. There is no point in not doing so. If by sharing Gregster’s style you mean an I am intelligent driver tired of the way the industry has declined for drivers, then yes, I share his style.

No, you said and I quote your last line, ‘I speak the truth, and I do so without reservation.’ and the point was just because you ‘feel’ you are speaking the truth it doesn’t give any more validity when you try to push mw/tip etc down peoples throats in threads that have no relevance to those topics. One thing that if you read my posts, is that I’m quite good at repeating back what people actually typed!

When I quoted gregsters ‘style’ it wasn’t a compliment but it doesn’t surprise me you took it as one. That’ll be another co-incidence then won’t it!

 

[Wizzle_Wassell]

Re: Re-Thinking Delivery Charges
PPG2270:

pizzapirate:

Yes sir, “free and clear” money. The shop does nothing to earn the delivery charge. It is simply a fee, free and clear. If your overhead is such that menu prices do not cover the bills, raise the prices. That is the traditional way of doing things.

You CLEARLY do not understand the different ways in which shops price their goods and services and for that reason there is little point in arguing with you.

If delivery charge was ‘free and clear’ money then why would anyone (and there are a number on this site, and a few who’ve posted on this thread) offer free delivery?? You are in the wrong job CLEARLY you should be a consultant, come and see me and tell me that I can just put on a delivery charge and it will magically be ‘free and clear’. I’ve been trading with two busy shops for 9 years between them and boy I’ve just learnt that I’ve been missing a trick by not having a delivery charge… :roll:

Go away and do some proper research rather than spouting utter utter nonsense. Maybe if you actually took more than a minute to read the previous posts you will see what utter nonsence your comment (as most of the others have been) was.

And BTW constructive/insightful driver comments… more than welcome, but the way you are going I doubt you’ll be here long!

 

[system]

Re: Re-Thinking Delivery Charges
Wizzle Wassell:

PPG2270:

pizzapirate:

Yes sir, “free and clear” money. The shop does nothing to earn the delivery charge. It is simply a fee, free and clear. If your overhead is such that menu prices do not cover the bills, raise the prices. That is the traditional way of doing things.

You CLEARLY do not understand the different ways in which shops price their goods and services and for that reason there is little point in arguing with you.

If delivery charge was ‘free and clear’ money then why would anyone (and there are a number on this site, and a few who’ve posted on this thread) offer free delivery?? You are in the wrong job CLEARLY you should be a consultant, come and see me and tell me that I can just put on a delivery charge and it will magically be ‘free and clear’. I’ve been trading with two busy shops for 9 years between them and boy I’ve just learnt that I’ve been missing a trick by not having a delivery charge… :roll:

Go away and do some proper research rather than spouting utter utter nonsense. Maybe if you actually took more than a minute to read the previous posts you will see what utter nonsence your comment (as most of the others have been) was.

And BTW constructive/insightful driver comments… more than welcome, but the way you are going I doubt you’ll be here long!

Negativity will get you nowhere. Please tell me what a shop does to earn a delivery charge, other than implement one?

 

[system]

Re: Re-Thinking Delivery Charges the off topic part
Wizzle Wassell:

PPG2270:

Ok ok ok…but I said I speak what I FEEL is the truth, a little different from saying my stance is the ONLY way. I am sure that everyone feels they are speaking the truth. There is no point in not doing so. If by sharing Gregster’s style you mean an I am intelligent driver tired of the way the industry has declined for drivers, then yes, I share his style.

No, you said and I quote your last line, ‘I speak the truth, and I do so without reservation.’ and the point was just because you ‘feel’ you are speaking the truth it doesn’t give any more validity when you try to push mw/tip etc down peoples throats in threads that have no relevance to those topics. One thing that if you read my posts, is that I’m quite good at repeating back what people actually typed!

When I quoted gregsters ‘style’ it wasn’t a compliment but it doesn’t surprise me you took it as one. That’ll be another co-incidence then won’t it!

I speak the truth as I see it, please look earlier in that post to validate that. If I say what I mean, and mean what I say, where is the problem? If you do not agree, so be it. This is a discussion forum to express/share/challenge ideas. Just because someone with a different insight comes along does not mean he is wrong.

 

[Wizzle_Wassell]

Re: Re-Thinking Delivery Charges the off topic part

and it also doesn’t mean he’s right!!

 

[system]

Re: Re-Thinking Delivery Charges the off topic part
Wizzle Wassell:

and it also doesn’t mean he’s right!!

Indeed 8)

 

[system]

I do not want to lump all driver’s together as that would be unfair to the rest of them also. I am still wondering what a fair rate of pay and compensation is in your opinion? Why won’t you put a number on it. If you have a valid arguement about wages and benefits…make it. Repeating over and over again the same thing that has been said before by posters that are no longer… and not because we disagree with the arguement… we disagree with the way the arguement was put forth… we are not here to silience ideas or thoughts that we do not like or consider wrong. But we are here to run our own business operations and 99% of employees… including drivers do not have a clue as to the real risk and expense that goes into any business venture. It is easy to look at the imaginary figures that most employees use to make comments about where the money goes. I am still trying to find a single shop that pays under minimum wage to its drivers. The comment that “that is how the government looks at them” as in a tipperd worker is a whole other thread. Correct me if I am wrong… but are any of the drivers out there required to claim their tips as a percentage of delivered sales to the IRS? I have not found any of them either. If you are out there…I would love to hear about it. Also…to constantly hear about how the definition of the delievery driver has changed over the years…well the world has changed also. I will say it again… if I had any employee that was not willing to cross-train for whatever position they were needed to fill…I would have an opening for a new employee. Last time I checked unemployment was officially at 10% or so… actually… it is probably closer to that 17% everyone really talks about. How many people would like to have a job making $15 an hour or so… I bet that driver definition gets more obscured by the minute. :!:

 

[system]

Ok let me bottom line this: Minimum wage is fair for a driver. The driver does make tips, which should be a bonus not part of expected income. I do not appreciate any store (Big 3, small chain, or indy) paying sub-minimum wages like we are wait staff. The dangers of the job alone should allow drivers to make minimum wage (without tips).

As I stated before, I have been in management. Therefore, I know some things about bottom lining an issue. I am not asking the shops to “break the bank” with driver pay, but minimum wage (with very small bonuses for loyalty and good work) should be the norm.

When the government included “delivery drivers” under tip credit laws, they now expect that the drivers are tipped, and as such depend on customers to supplement income when tip credit is used.

If a shop pays minimum and is busy enough to allow the driver to keep busy on the road, I am all for that business and wish it all the success in the world.

If I am allowed to stay on this board, I will soon explain my story and why I am so adamant against tip credit for delivery drivers.

 

[Piper]

PPG2270:

If I am allowed to stay on this board, I will soon explain my story and why I am so adamant against tip credit for delivery drivers.

Before you do, please allow us to gather a show of hands for how many of us utilize tip-credit in paying our drivers. Much like Gregster, you are railing against the big chains to mostly independent or small regional operators. I can’t remember any owner here ever saying they use tip-credit for drivers, but maybe I’m wrong. For those of us here not using tip credit, I can safely say we are sick of the never-ending lectures. We probably don’t care why you are so adamant against tip credit for delivery drivers because it doesn’t affect our businesses at all.

That way if none of the posters here are utilizing tip credit for their delivery drivers you can save yourself a lot of typing time.

No, I don’t utilize tip-credit. My drivers are paid over minimum wage.

 

[system]

Does anyone here use tip-credit and pay sub-minimum? Why would a driver work for such an operation. PPG2270, I wish you would step back and see that we are not the problem or enemy here. The tactics that the big boys use are not the norm in the indie business world. How do you expect them to sell $5 pizzas and stay in business. They have to treat their employees like this. The bigger problem is that the customers still keep the phones ringing off the hook and they have an endless line of new employees just waiting to be treated so poorly. Why did PH settle out of court in 2005 over this issue? Why is big D just about to get hit with a class action out of Minnesota? My guess is they will settle and the story goes away. It will cost them millions just like PH did but the story dies and customers hear less about it. What do all the drivers get… maybe a check for a couple hundred dollars to shut them up and say they got paid for something wrong. The lawyers…well they get 25-33% depending on the out of court settlement agreement. Yeah… millions for doing their slimmy work as usual. I just did a Yahoo search and what really stands out is the endless driver’s blogs and websites that do nothing but slander all pizza owners and so forth. I also get a laugh out of their tipping expectations that they talk about. I know it is not a laughing matter but some of those post are really out there. You want people to listen and help and support the drivers… which most indies do anyway… then take the first step and clean up the argument you are trying to make. Others have failed for this reason. If you do not want to be all classified in the same pool of drivers then rethink the way you convey your opinions a little.

 

[NicksPizza]

PPG2270:

Ok let me bottom line this: Minimum wage is fair for a driver. The driver does make tips, which should be a bonus not part of expected income. I do not appreciate any store (Big 3, small chain, or indy) paying sub-minimum wages like we are wait staff. The dangers of the job alone should allow drivers to make minimum wage (without tips).

Minimum wage is a legal term which, as defined by the Fair LAbor Standards Act as modified in 2007(?), provided that delivery drivers could have that minimum wage modified very legally using the tip credit provisions.
PPG2270:

As I stated before, I have been in management. Therefore, I know some things about bottom lining an issue. I am not asking the shops to “break the bank” with driver pay, but minimum wage (with very small bonuses for loyalty and good work) should be the norm.

Norm is not decided by “should” or “fair” . . . it is decided by commonly accepted pratice. Again, minimum wage is a legal term as referenced above.
PPG2270:

When the government included “delivery drivers” under tip credit laws, they now expect that the drivers are tipped, and as such depend on customers to supplement income when tip credit is used.

Yet, the minimum wage laws provide no legal mandate for customers to tip. No employee anywhere are “expected” to be tipped, but if they are customarily in your market, then those tips may be used by an employer as a credit toward the requirements for minimum wage provisions. Read the law rather than redefining it.
PPG2270:

If a shop pays minimum and is busy enough to allow the driver to keep busy on the road, I am all for that business and wish it all the success in the world.

Sounds like you need ot be contacting our state and federal representatives/legislators rather than taking shots at business operators under the guise of helping them operate effectively. Seems all your focus and drive is toward the driver and not the operator/owner functioning his shop…

 

[system]

NicksPizza:

PPG2270:

Ok let me bottom line this: Minimum wage is fair for a driver. The driver does make tips, which should be a bonus not part of expected income. I do not appreciate any store (Big 3, small chain, or indy) paying sub-minimum wages like we are wait staff. The dangers of the job alone should allow drivers to make minimum wage (without tips).

Minimum wage is a legal term which, as defined by the Fair LAbor Standards Act as modified in 2007(?), provided that delivery drivers could have that minimum wage modified very legally using the tip credit provisions.
PPG2270:

As I stated before, I have been in management. Therefore, I know some things about bottom lining an issue. I am not asking the shops to “break the bank” with driver pay, but minimum wage (with very small bonuses for loyalty and good work) should be the norm.

Norm is not decided by “should” or “fair” . . . it is decided by commonly accepted pratice. Again, minimum wage is a legal term as referenced above.
PPG2270:

When the government included “delivery drivers” under tip credit laws, they now expect that the drivers are tipped, and as such depend on customers to supplement income when tip credit is used.

Yet, the minimum wage laws provide no legal mandate for customers to tip. No employee anywhere are “expected” to be tipped, but if they are customarily in your market, then those tips may be used by an employer as a credit toward the requirements for minimum wage provisions. Read the law rather than redefining it.
PPG2270:

If a shop pays minimum and is busy enough to allow the driver to keep busy on the road, I am all for that business and wish it all the success in the world.

Sounds like you need ot be contacting our state and federal representatives/legislators rather than taking shots at business operators under the guise of helping them operate effectively. Seems all your focus and drive is toward the driver and not the operator/owner functioning his shop…

I was asked what I thought was fair driver compensation, and I answered the question. I was therefore asked my opinion and I gave it.

 

[system]

Well I do not need to go head to head against you because it has no purpose. As far as dealing with someone that can backup what they know. I am not going to touch that one. Our products are distributed under 177 different names nationwide and gov contracts. We were bought out a few years ago by a little ketchup company in PA…HJ Heinz… you have probably heard of them. The funny thing is that you are just not capable of reading what I post and that I actually support fair pay and benefits for drivers and all employees. We built a business on employees. Engineered a new multi-load onpack system through Cryovac that has been picked up extensively throughout the food industry. This system could have eliminated 50% of our workforce… instead we did a huge expansion and trippled our workforce and output by 6 times. All the while offering good jobs, pay, and benefits to 300 people and familys. Not to take a low shot…but you go from account executive to delivery driver? Sir…my points have merit and substance behind them. More so than any of the rantings that are being made against the owners here about practices that they do no take part in. I do not say nor imply that I know everything since nobody does or ever will, I have made oplenty of mistakes in my years and will be the first to admit it. On the other hand, I will put my business background and expertise out there any day of the week.

 

[system]

Hey G… you also say you pay $xx a day in gas for work…are you not reimbursed for deliveries? May we ask what you make an hour… in tips… delivery charges? We all have expenses to do our jobs and as a driver yours is mainly fuel. Also if you are so unhappy in your delivery world… why do you do it? With the knowledge base that you have to offer why are you delivering pizzas? Have you brought your concerns to your current employer directly? In my businesses the most productive ideas usually came from the bottom up but if you never bring anything to anyones attention then all that is left is to complain to strangers on internet boards? For someone with such a self-proclaimed level of business and intellect…I am just wondering why we are even worth your time? We cannot change your work situation. I will gladly call your boss and have a conversation with him/her about your concerns in generall if you like? I just don’t know how to help this situation. If you have a better idea…please share… as one comment that the drivers make over and over again is that their comments and ideas are not welcome or wanted here… that is just wrong. You do need to work on how you make these comments as that directly reflects on the response that you will get. You personaliza your attacks…and yes they are attacks… and that is not helpful, or appreciated. Go over to that drivers blog site if you want to do that. I am pretty sure that no matter what pay or benefits you receive you would still not be happy and it would just go nowhere. So lets put an end to this entire thread and if I can speak for all the non-drivers… give you the last word. What is the bottom line point you would like to make. Explain you side and like I have said no les than 5 times in this thread… you are fighting against people that more or less support you.

 

[g.luczak]

Well QC I will make one last attempt at letting you know what the original post was. It didn’t have a thing to do with driver compensation and still doesn’t and as far as attacks go I was blasted for a simple calculation indicating the fruits of delivery to the owner, driver and consumer. It was to charge or not to charge and whether one should announce the delivery fee to customers. That was it. Then I see my quotes in another response again blasting me on expertise and calculations. The only thing I did was respond to blatant arrogance on your part and that of the other posters. And I was not an account executive for the record I have however been in the position to learn various industry practices in my short life and learn at a rapid pace. I have worked with in part to develop new technologies in snow and ice removal (snow melters since we are comparing pedigrees which are sold worldwide) and the medical industries (data processing techniques utilized by a top medical facility). I have a nursing degree, I have a biology degree, and I have extensive background in accounting, inventory control, data processing, and auditing. I choose to work as a delivery driver at this point in time because I like it. I have never complained once about my pay I make enough to pay the bills and frills. I live cheaply and I am happy with that.

 

[Wizzle_Wassell]

Re: Re-Thinking Delivery Charges
PPG2270:

Wizzle Wassell:

You CLEARLY do not understand the different ways in which shops price their goods and services and for that reason there is little point in arguing with you.

If delivery charge was ‘free and clear’ money then why would anyone (and there are a number on this site, and a few who’ve posted on this thread) offer free delivery?? You are in the wrong job CLEARLY you should be a consultant, come and see me and tell me that I can just put on a delivery charge and it will magically be ‘free and clear’. I’ve been trading with two busy shops for 9 years between them and boy I’ve just learnt that I’ve been missing a trick by not having a delivery charge… :roll:

Go away and do some proper research rather than spouting utter utter nonsense. Maybe if you actually took more than a minute to read the previous posts you will see what utter nonsence your comment (as most of the others have been) was.

And BTW constructive/insightful driver comments… more than welcome, but the way you are going I doubt you’ll be here long!

Negativity will get you nowhere. Please tell me what a shop does to earn a delivery charge, other than implement one?

Who’s being negative. I’m just speaking what I believe is the ‘truth’!

A business can determine its remuneration strategy in many ways. A business can have a) a specific charge for its delivery or b) have slightly higher product charges which include allow it to cover the costs of delivery.

Just because a business chooses to have an explicit doesn’t mean it’s ‘not doing anything’ its all part of the overall pricing structure.

Seeing as you fail to see this point here’s an example:

1. 1 x Pizza @ $10.00 + delivery charge at $2.00 = $12 or
2. 1 x pizza @ $12.00 with ‘free’ delivery

Are you saying that business 1 above hasn’t done anything to earn the delivery charge?

 

[system]

Re: Re-Thinking Delivery Charges
Wizzle Wassell:

Who’s being negative. I’m just speaking what I believe is the ‘truth’!

A business can determine its remuneration strategy in many ways. A business can have a) a specific charge for its delivery or b) have slightly higher product charges which include allow it to cover the costs of delivery.

Just because a business chooses to have an explicit doesn’t mean it’s ‘not doing anything’ its all part of the overall pricing structure.

Seeing as you fail to see this point here’s an example:

1. 1 x Pizza @ $10.00 + delivery charge at $2.00 = $12 or
2. 1 x pizza @ $12.00 with ‘free’ delivery

Are you saying that business 1 above hasn’t done anything to earn the delivery charge?

In example two you are charging the price of the pizza needed to cover associated costs. In example one, the customer believes he is getting a $10 pizza, but is charged a “phantom fee” which is apparently used to cover costs. If you charge $12, you are earning the $12. If you charge $10 with a $2 fee, it is deceitful, and you earn $10 for the pizza and $2 for “nothing.” This may sound odd, but coming from someone who has been having pizza delivered long before I ever worked in the industry, please hear me out. I would rather pay $12 and know that is what the pizza costs versus $10 and a mysterious fee. Delivery was generally free since the advent of the service, but now we charge for it? If your pizza is worth $12, charge for $12 for it. If it is worth $10, charge $10 but don’t try to trick the customer with a fee

Side note: Perhaps the name should be changed to “convenience fee” or “store delivery charge” to clear any association and confusion with the customer as it relates to tips.

 

[wa_dave]

Re: Re-Thinking Delivery Charges

g.luczak:

I pay anywhere from 15 to 25 dollars a day to work just in gas. Don’t come to us saying we don’t deserve our pay just as any other employee does.Don’t say we are whining when it is you who is trying to justify paying drivers less than that of any other employees.Your little anecdote of just read my post I am all for paying drivers their just do and then tell them they are cry baby know it alls. hmm 8 hr shift it cost me 1.85 to 3.12 an hour for the privilege to work for you. Please don’t pretend to know everything. Are you even prepared to deal with someone that can back up what they know.

And based on the cost of deliveries being around 1/3 more than the delivery fee charged (hourly rate + delivery re-imbursement - fee charged to customer) then both the drivers and owners are losing money on supplying a delivery service. Moral from this stop doing deliveries or charge a fee that covers the cost for all concerned. Ooopps, I forgot customers don’t care what it costs they just want delivery for free but they expect payment for any work they do.
Dave