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Specialty Pizza Recipe Sources...

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Hi,

West Marin is indeed ripe for a good pizza concept. Just beware that if you go the all organic route, you’ll be paying nearly double for you products and will have to sell the pie accordingly. I use organic flour and organic products as much as I can, but I do charge for it. Are you looking at Point Reyes Station? Because that would be the most likely location to put in such a shop.

As for the oven, the behemouth sounds like over-kill–and just imagine what your gas and or propane bill would be! You are very right to consider the floor loads of any other oven you put in–especially if you are in an older building. It would pay to have a structural engineer tell you what the floor loads are in your shop BEFORE buying an oven.

I don’t think it is a good idea to put so much effort into tweaking your pizza to be produced in an oven that doesn’t sound right for what you want to produce. Another piece of advice for this oven, and any other gas unit, check the size of the gas meter and gas line coming into the store because if you have to put in a larger meter which will cost a lot and take several months waiting time.

Since I know the area you are planning on opening this store and the market, I would go with either a brick deck oven–like a Marsall (sp?) that will give you high temperature cooking–but not as high as you want for a Neapolitan type pizza. (900-950 degrees on the deck). Wood-Stone or Earthstone wood-fired or gas-fired stone can be cranked up to those temperatures, but work best at (800-900 degrees) floor temperatures which match the intensity and quality of coal ovens–and most other wood-fired pizza in Italy. The whole Neapolitan thing is a different animal.

If you are looking for a Lombardi style crust, then you don’t have to go with temperatures that are quite as high as the Neapolitan type. While the 800-900 range is optimal, great results can be had at 700-750 degree range as well. Also, if you intend on making larger pies, beyond 12-13 inches, they will need to cook several minutes-4 or 5 minutes and in an oven that’s cranked up as high as a typical Neapolitan oven, they will burn on the outside before they are cooked on the inside. Larger pies do take longer to cook. If you plan on doing small individual pies, then that is not an issue.

I don’t know what the price is for the oven you are looking at, but I think it will end up costing you more in the long run. Wood-Stone ovens are very good, but they are extremely expensive. Earthstone ovens, are equally good and less pricey. I do believe they still have commercial models that come in a kit that would cost less to install. If you don’t have a lot of bucks, the Marsall is a good option. I’ve used these ovens and they give really good results. If you have the right formulation, you can achieve a very respectable artisan pizza from those ovens–especially given what products you intend on using. BTW Marsall also has some very nice looking oven face options that will give the look of a rustic brick oven.

The 2 most important piece of equipment for your operation will be the mixer and the oven: choose wisely.
 
evelyne:

“Just beware that if you go the all organic route, you’ll be paying nearly double for you products and will have to sell the pie accordingly. I use organic flour and organic products as much as I can, but I do charge for it.”

like most (all?) eateries that offer organic ingredients, i will note on my menu that “local organic products are used whenever possible” or the like. it would be impossible (and cost prohibitive imo) to use organics for absolutely everything. frankly, i keep waiting for organic prices to fall closer in line with their non-organic counterparts but after 11 years nothing has changed in price as far as i can tell - especially where i am. i would never expect to pay the same for organics, but i don’t think it’s unreasonable to expect a 10%-20% premium - unfortunately the premium is much, much higher. for home use the increased cost is negligible imo, but for high-volume eateries with an average check of $12-$15 it can be crippling…

“Are you looking at Point Reyes Station? Because that would be the most likely location to put in such a shop.”

actually my cafe is in point reyes station and i have been in business for 11 years - my decision to go with pizza has more to do with a fresh, fun change/concept than economics. i have also purchased a rotisserie in order to also offer free-range (or possibly organic) chickens and cornish hens. i think the pizza and rotisserie birds, coupled with our house roasted organic coffee would be a very nice mix. i have also purchased a soft serve ice cream machine and am experimenting with organic soft serve made with strauss (or clover) organic milk - i’m very close to finalizing a recipe. i will offer vanilla and coffee (made with our organic house roasted beans) or a “twist” of both. the soft serve will round out my front of the house menu which will include espresso specialty drinks, italian sodas made with san pellegrino, milk shakes, etc.

“As for the oven, the behemouth sounds like over-kill–and just imagine what your gas and or propane bill would be! You are very right to consider the floor loads of any other oven you put in–especially if you are in an older building. It would pay to have a structural engineer tell you what the floor loads are in your shop BEFORE buying an oven.”

actually i was being facetious about the weight of the pizza oven - i have a commercial kitchen and the pizza oven will replace my current hot line. there will be no floor issues. also, the pizza oven i am buying is electric, not gas and each deck is independently controlled - frankly, i think i will be able to easily make use of all decks (prepping pizza toppings, other menu items, etc.) - and it will be easy enough to just turn off any decks i won’t be using. given that it’s a used oven at a great price, i don’t feel that i’m overpaying for decks i’ll never use.

“Since I know the area you are planning on opening this store and the market, I would go with either a brick deck oven–like a Marsall (sp?) that will give you high temperature cooking–but not as high as you want for a Neapolitan type pizza (900-950 degrees on the deck). Wood-Stone or Earthstone wood-fired or gas-fired stone can be cranked up to those temperatures, but work best at (800-900 degrees) floor temperatures which match the intensity and quality of coal ovens–and most other wood-fired pizza in Italy. The whole Neapolitan thing is a different animal.”

the only way i can achieve 800-900 degrees is with a wood-fire (or coal-fire) oven or a tandoor oven as far as i have found. i have spoken with virtually every gas/electric deck oven manufacturer and have been told the same thing - that i won’t be able to find a commercial deck oven that will do 800-900. i thought woodstone (the company) deck ovens might be a possiblity but was told flatly that their ovens were not designed to be operated over 650. if you know of a gas or electric deck oven that can cook at 800-900 degrees, please let me know - it would be very much appreciated.

“If you are looking for a Lombardi style crust, then you don’t have to go with temperatures that are quite as high as the Neapolitan type. While the 800-900 range is optimal, great results can be had at 700-750 degree range as well. Also, if you intend on making larger pies, beyond 12-13 inches, they will need to cook several minutes-4 or 5 minutes and in an oven that’s cranked up as high as a typical Neapolitan oven, they will burn on the outside before they are cooked on the inside. Larger pies do take longer to cook. If you plan on doing small individual pies, then that is not an issue.”

i still plan on offering only 10"-11" pies albeit not neapolitans - given that the oven i am considering has a thermostat with a max setting of 700 degrees, do you think i would be able to produce a quality lombardi style crust?

“I don’t know what the price is for the oven you are looking at, but I think it will end up costing you more in the long run. Wood-Stone ovens are very good, but they are extremely expensive. Earthstone ovens, are equally good and less pricey.”

as i mentioned, the person i spoke with at woodstone told me their ovens were not designed to bake at more than 650 degrees. earthstone, as well as forna bravo which is not too far from me, offer commercial wood-fire ovens that would do the job for neapolitans - actually, forno bravo has some very reasonable prices albeit they are not as fancy as earthstone models. but after much consideration, i have ruled out a wood-fire oven. my goal now is to produce a quality, rustic, 10"-11" pizza in the stone 4-deck electric pizza oven i have been looking at (hobart/adamatic) which is rated to 700 degrees. can i accomplish such pizzas with this oven?

again, thanks so much for your help evelyne,

robert
 
I am in the process of hooking up a Q-matic 36W conveyor in my mobile pizzeria. I also have a small Comstock Castle deck oven, mostly for heating slices and slow volume times.
I know I cannot make a pizza comparable to Patsy Grimaldi’s, I have just been to their place in Scottsdale, AZ where they have a coal fired brick oven, which I understand is in all there locations.
I planr to bake on the 14 gauge black anodized disks, only 80 holes for the 14" disks.
Anybody had experience with this type profile.
I really like the cheese on their pizza, it comes out good in the coal fired oven, I do not know the baking temperature.

Otis
 
Robert,

I will leave to Evelyne to answer definitively whether the Lombardi dough will work in the particular oven you plan to use. I suspect that the results will be different because a dough formulation and the oven have to match in order to get optimum results. That is not to say that you won’t be satisfied with the results, only that they will be different.

However, if you are intent on using the electric deck oven you mentioned, one possibility that you might consider is an “elite” NY style dough such as that used by Dom DeMarco at Di Fara’s in Brooklyn. What primarily distinguishes Dom’s dough from other elite NY styles, including Lombardi’s, is that it uses a combination of both a 00 flour and a high-gluten flour. That sort of makes it a cross between a Neapolitan style pizza and a NY style pizza, with a bias toward the 00 side because of the roughly 3:1 ratio of 00 flour to high-gluten flour (by volume).

Moreover, Dom uses an oven that reportedly operates at 700 degrees F. It is a stainless steel gas-fired deck oven, and while it is not the best oven to use to make an authentic Neapolitan pizza, some of the attributes of the Neapolitan style will be present in the pies. Dom’s pizzas are usually on the large size, around 16”-18”, but from what he once told me when I visited his shop I calculated that a dough ball for a 10” inch pizza would weigh in at about 7 ounces. It would be a bit over 8 ounces for an 11” pizza. Dom works strictly with volumes and feel, so you won’t get baker’s percents or other fancy information to guide you. So, some experimentation would be needed to get a workable product.

I can tell you what I know about Dom’s dough and pizzas if you decide that this is something that might interest you. I will say, however, that Dom uses the highest-quality ingredients in making his pizzas, especially the cheeses (including imported Caserta bufala di mozzarella), tomatoes (imported San Marzano DOPs, and fresh tomatoes), toppings, and fresh/imported dried herbs. And the cheeses and toppings are used in copious amounts. I think these are the reasons why Di Fara’s almost always ranks in the top two or three pizza establishments in the Metro NYC area.

Maybe from my description you will be able to tell whether the picture I have painted will fit your particular demographic and operating phiosophy, particularly if a proper match can be established between a Di Fara type dough and your oven.

Peter
 
dough ball size

I use a 16 ounce ball for a 14" pizza.
At the ratio you said the Neopolitan type pizza it would be about 13 ounces for a 14" pizza. Obviously, that will make a significant difference in those pizza profiles.
I have used a 14 ounce dough for a 14" pizza, it was a little tricky to hand toss and get right. And for employees I teach, we could mess up a lot of pizzas with the lighter ball.
Will have to find my way when production starts.
I hope my volume will be 20 + pizza per hour with the Q-Matic oven, and at that volume, it will not be as artisan type pizza.
I appreciate your input and information,
Otis
 
Re: dough ball size

Otis,

Your math is correct. Dom DeMarco told me that he uses around 22 ounces for an 18" pizza, and that translates to a thickness factor of 0.086. Since Dom does everything by feel and uses volume measurements, that number could be off a bit.

Dom does not toss the pizzas but rather works the dough on the bench, along with using gravity to stretch the dough. Most 00 flours tend to have low gluten development and, hence, are not good candidates for tossing, and especially at 16" to 18". I have never seen a photo of Dom tossing dough, and I have seen quite a few photos. I think it is possible to toss a 10’ or 11" skin, especially if some high-gluten flour is also used in the dough, as is done at DiFara’s.

Dom has been interviewed and photographed countless times, and there is a seemingly endless trek of writers and people with their cameras to DiFara’s, so there is a fair amount of information and photos on Dom, his pizzas, and his shop. For example, if you go to the photo-sharing website flickr.com and enter “Difara pizza” (without the quotes), you will see quite a few photos of Dom, his pizzas and his shop. The food-themed forum egullet.com also has some nice photos, under the NYC Pizza Survey thread, which can be accessed through a search on the forum. The blog website sliceny.com also has a fair amount on DiFara’s and Dom DeMarco. I’m nor particularly knowledgeable about ovens, but maybe someone seeing the photos of Dom’s oven can tell me who makes/made it. It is ancient and dilapidated but it works.

Peter
 
Re: question for Peter

Peter,
Do you know the protein content of the 00 flour ?
I have used the Caputo 00 flour and have not been able to find out the protein level of it.
Also, I assume when you said blended with high protein flour that it would be comparable to the All Trumps brand.
Is All Trumps equivalent to 0 milled as opposed to 00 ?
I have never gotten clear answers on this, and perhaps I am not asking the question properly.
thanks,

Otis
 
Re: question for Peter

Peter,
Thank you, great site for DiFara’s pizza. A picture is worth a thousand words.
Check my math, an 18" pizza at 380 square inches would be 32 ounces at
.086. 22 ounces for a 18" pizza is .057, making it thinner than the 10" pizza.
Please correct me if wrong. Difara may use less ounces per square inch on the larger pizzas to make the baking times equivalent with the smaller pizzas.
What a gret site, thank you for making my day !

Otis
 
Re: question for Peter

Otis,

By my calculation, the dough weight (DW) for a pizza with a radius R (where R=D/2=18/2=9) and a thickness factor of 0.086 comes to:

DW = 3.14 x 9 x9 x 0.086 = 21.9 ounces

To the best of my knowledge and recollection of the menu at DiFara’s, Dom DeMarco does not make small pizzas, although he makes a Sicilian pie. I mentioned the 10" and 11" pies only because that is the size that Robert is considering.

I am glad you liked the sites I referenced. Sometime you may also want to go to youtube.com, where you will find videos that people have uploaded to the youtube.com video-sharing website. There are a lot of video clips on pizza, and much of it is not of value to serious pizza makers, but there is some good stuff also. You will have to narrow the search terms to find it. To show you how much things are changing with video, 50,000 video clips are uploaded daily to youtube.com and there are about 50 million videos viewed daily. Google is also doing video, but the numbers are far smaller.

Peter
 
Re: question for Peter, your’e right

Peter,

You are absolutely right on the dough size for the pizza at .086.
I was figuring the radius at 11 inches, for a 22 inch pizza instead, my math not being so good.
Thank you for the correction.

As for the videos, I have an Apple computer and get the Google video fine, some of the others need a Microsoft software that I do not have installed so I cannot see them.

thanks again,

Otis
 
Hi Robert,

Can I ask you what the name of your current cafe is?

When I was making pizza in NYC, I did not have a coal or wood-burning oven. I used a Blodgett deck which cooked at 650 degrees (I used 2 decks to avoid loss of heat sync during peak times) with the Lombardi formula and got excellent results–not quite the same as coal or wood, but great pizza. As Peter mentioned earlier, deck ovens haven’t stopped master pizza makers like DeMarco from awesome results. In 1985 when I was producing those pies from a deck oven, I used San Marzano tomatoes, my own hand-made cheese and the flour I used was similar to Italian 00 (which wasn’t available in the US then). If the oven you are going to use, reaches 700 degrees, I don’t see why you shouldn’t be able to produce some very respectable Lombardiesque pizza.

As far as Wood-Stone and Earthstone. I’ve worked very closely with both manufacturers in their factories on testing the results between the traditional wood-burning and the gas-fired stone oven. As far as Wood-Stone, I was testing both ovens (gas and wood) at equal temperatures of 750 for my tests. The wood-fired oven cooked about 25% f aster at the same temperature than the gas fired, and the crust was a slightly different color as well as thicker than the wood-fired example. I think that I could make the difference barely noticable with some formula tweaking however. Why the difference? Gas is a liquid and promotes a more humid heat–even at the same temperature reading, the moisture in the air cuts down on the penetration factor and takes longer to cook the dough, which is why the outer crust is thicker. Wood or Coal provide a super dry heat which does not create that moisture barrier around the baked product, so they penetrate faster, thus creating a slightly airier, and more delicate, crisp outer crust.

The Earthstone ovens had a less noticable difference, probably due to their refractory material. The cooking time between the two models, at the same temperature–750 was only about 10%. That being said, I did not fully crank up the Earthstone because I was attempting to test all of the equipment under similar circumstances. I have a huge Earthstone in my restaurant and we crank it up daily to operating temperatures of 800-900 degrees, which it maintains, with no sweat. The pizzas take about 2 minutes+ to cook (depending on how much topping they have). All of the traditional Margheritas, NY, NY, etc take just under 2 minutes for 12 inch pies.

I spent a whole year traveling around the country to oven manufacturers factories testing their ovens utilizing the same recipe and the same temperature specifications and recording my results. This is how I like to test technology–through hands on. Now, I can really inform others on what ovens can work with the various applications. For example, when I worked with Wood-stone, they did not have such a low spec. But, this might be on some of the newer models that I haven’t worked with. If 650 degrees is all they can get, you can achieve that on a Marsalle, why bother to get a stone oven?

Anyway, to answer you question? Sounds like your oven could do the job, and more. You’ll just have to tweak your formulation to work in it, which should not be a problem

Hope this helps…

I will be out of the office until Thursday of this week–I’m going down to LA to spend some time with Peppe Miele of Pizzeria Anitca (VPN) and Ed Ladou of Caioti, so if I don’t get back to your posts, you’ll know why.
 
“Maybe from my description you will be able to tell whether the picture I have painted will fit your particular demographic and operating phiosophy, particularly if a proper match can be established between a Di Fara type dough and your oven.”
Click to expand...
peter: you are my new best friend, sir! the “elite ny” style you described strikes me as a perfect alternative to the neapolitan-like 10"-11" product i was hoping for - especially considering that i am indeed intent on using the electric 4-decker adamatic.

as i have mentioned earlier, i am also intent on using only the highest quality ingredients available and have no problem using them in “copiuos” amounts! and given that the oven i’m interested in is rated at 700-750 degrees, i’m hoping (with your help) that i will be able to produce a reasonable elite ny style facsimile.

if you wouldn’t mind, do you think you could give me your best-guess recipe for such a crust? you say that dom works by volume and feel but, given my lack of experience, i wouldn’t know where to beginl! if you gave me a jump start, i have all of the time in the world, and patience, to do whatever fine tuning is required.

also, if it’s not asking too much, do you think you could recommend a grocery list of ingredients i would need for this venture - for example, the type of fresh/imported dried herbs, including brand name, that i should look at?

i very much appreciate you taking the time to tell me about the elite ny style type of pie - from your description and the photos i have seen on the net, this looks like a perfect fit for me! btw, i would also be very interested in knowing about your background in this industry as you are obvioulsy a seasoned vet!

evelyne: thanks very much for your words of encouragement! i was especially interested in your analysis of the different type of heat produced by different types of energy. what are your thoughts on the type of heat electric decks produce? do you feel that electric ovens produce a heat closer to that of gas or that of wood? also, if you would, please, please share what you learned on your l.a. trip!
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Robert,

Thank you for the compliments but I am afraid I am going to disappoint you when I tell you that I am not a professional (and never have been), but rather only a student of pizza–albeit a serious one. It was solely for my personal amusement that I tried to reverse-engineer the Di Fara dough and pizza (you can read about my exploits, and those of others, at the Di Fara reverse engineering thread at pizzamaking.com). But I think I have learned enough about the Di Fara dough and its processing to be able to get you started. Whether a Di Fara-type dough is something that will work in the oven you plan to use is something that you will have to determine. That is outside of my area of knowledge. Evelyne may be able to counsel you there much better than I.

I will start by mentioning that my biggest surprise about the Di Fara dough was its short fermentation time. Just about everyone raves about Dom’s crust so I always assumed that the dough was made in the evening for the next day’s lunch time crowd, and possibly also early in the morning for use for the dinnertime crowd. When I asked Dom about this, he told me that the dough is made throughout the day and given only 1 to 2 hours worth of fermentation, at room temperature. To me, that is not a particularly good dough from a quality standpoint, but by using a high oven temperature and a relatively long bake time, Dom is able to achieve a decent oven spring (good but not great) and coloration in the crust, with the somewhat charred look as seen in the photos. The long bake also allows sufficient time for the toppings on most pizzas to cook up properly. Also, since Dom uses very good tomatoes, cheeses, and some of the finest and freshest toppings (freshly prepared artichokes, porcini mushrooms, thick pepperoni slices, etc.), whatever deficiencies there may be in the crust are disguised by what he puts on the pizza. What appeals most to Di Fara fans, and they are legion, is the masterful way in which Dom creates his masterpieces. He paints his pizza canvas much like Michelangelo painted the Sistene Chapel.

What follows is an explanation of the ingredients used by Dom in making his dough and pizzas, including the brands he used when I last visited the subject. The only ingredients used in the dough are flour, water, salt and yeast. No oil and no sugar are used in the dough, although oil is used on the pizzas themselves.

Flour: Dom uses a blend of imported Italian 00 flour and high-gluten flour, in a ratio of 75% 00 flour/25% high-gluten flour, by volume. Originally, he used the Delverde brand of 00 flour but later switched to the Caputo 00 Pizzeria flour. I have read that he may now be using a Colavita 00 flour. There is a stocking distributor for the Caputo 00 Pizzeria flour in the San Francisco area, so the Caputo 00 Pizzeria flour may be a good flour choice. It is a very good product. The last I knew, the high-gluten flour was the All Trumps, from General Mills. I don’t believe there is an organic version of that flour but I think an organic high-gluten flour from another source should meet your needs.

Water: Dom told me that he uses 2 1/2 parts flour to 1 part water, again by volume. His dough is often described as being on the wet side, although Dom says it is not and, when I saw it, it did not appear to be particularly wet. However, based on the absorption rates of the two flours he uses, I would say that the hydration rate is something around 60% (by weight of flour).

Yeast: Dom uses fresh yeast. It is hard to say how much since he just takes a piece off the block to use. This will be an area that will be subject to some experimentation.

Oil: The oil that Dom has used in the past on his pizzas, and may still be using, is the Felippo Berio brand of olive oil (the kind in the yellow can, not the next level up in the green can).

Salt: I assume that ordinary salt is used but it could be a sea salt or something equivalent. This is an ingredient where some experimentation may be needed as to quantity required, although I would guess about 1.5-2% (by weight of flour). In Naples, sea salt is the most common choice. Sicilian sea salt is considered by many to be the very best.

Tomatoes/Sauce: The last I knew, Dom was using the imported Vantia brand of San Marzano tomatoes. The Vantia tomatoes come in two versions, the DOP version and the non-DOP version. Dom has used the DOP version. The DOP version are grown in certain identified regions around Naples and are deemed by many to be of higher quality than those grown outside those regions. That is not always true but some users rely on the DOP certification (the cans even have labels with serial numbers, etc.) as an indication of quality. Almost always, the price of the DOP tomatoes will be greater, often much greater, than the non-DOP versions. In your case, you should be able to find a good brand of San Marzanos, either DOP or non-DOP, in your area. The Di Fara sauce, which is uncooked, is made by blending the Vantia DOP tomatoes and fresh tomatoes (quite possibly in a blender or food processor) and adding either fresh basil or oregano (dried).

Cheeses: Dom uses a combination of several cheeses, and he will switch around from time to time based on price and availability. But they usually include bufala di mozzarella cheese imported from around Naples (Caserta, which he puts on pizzas in small pieces), a “fresh” fior-di-latte (cow’s milk) cheese (“Ovoline” cheese from Grande), a whole-milk mozzarella cheese from Grande (which is sliced in strands on a box grater, rather than shreds or dice), grated imported Parmigiano-Reggiano cheese and/or grana padano cheese, served either on the pizza as it bakes or on the side, or both. According to Ed Levine in the book he wrote about the best pizza establishments around the country, the ratio of buffalo mozzarella to the Grande used by Dom is about 3:1. In your case, I think you should be able to get all of the cheeses quite easily. You might also be able to substitute the Bubalus Bubalis domestic version of the buffalo mozzarella cheese. Bubalus Bubalis is one of the few domestic producers of buffalo mozzarella cheese, and also happens to be in California. I have heard on occasion that Dom uses a Romano cheese and, while that is possible, I have not been able to confirm it from anything I have heard or read.

Herbs: As best I can tell, Dom uses fresh basil and dried oregano. You should be able to use just about any locally grown basil, or you can grow your own. If you want Neapolitan authenticity in your pies, you can try the Napoletano variety, for which seeds are available from Botanical Interests, and others. I will forewarn you, however, that the Napoletano variety is much more potent than the common domestic varieties. I believe the dried oregano used by Dom is an imported variety, possibly Italian or Greek.

I think the only remaining major piece of the puzzle is the baker’s percents of a dough for you to experiment with. If you will specify a test quantity of dough, by weight, I think I should be able to come up with some numbers for you to play around with.

Peter
 
peter:

a “student” of pizza? yeah, i guess so! i’m beginning to think that some of the most knowledgeable and talented master pizza makers in this country are non-professionals!

thanks so much for your detailed response - it’s of tremendous help to me and has given me a great starting point! my oven will arrive this saturday but because of the busy weekend i won’t be able to begin playing with recipes until later next week or even the following week. that gives me plenty of time to source out many of the great products you mentioned as well as give me a chance to take a look at possible local substitutions - for example, cowgirl creamery (one of the best artisan cheese makers in the country) is a neighboring business and i just discovered that they are now producing a wonderul buffalo mozzerella.

btw, i ended up purchasing a 20 qt mixer to begin with (killer price on it - practically brand new!) but will probably upgrade before long. but given the 20 quarter, do you think you might be able to recommend a volume/weight recipe for 15 lbs of dough that i could start with?

again, thanks so much for your invaluable assistance.

robert
 
wow - just noticed that i have been posting without logging on (didn’t know that could be done!) and that all of my previous posts are under the name “guest”. anyway, to avoid confusion, my forum name is aeneas1 and i am the same person that started this thread…

robert
 
Robert,

I have a rough idea for a starting point, but now that you have given me a bit more time I should be able to fine tune the starting dough formulation before giving it to you.

Peter
 
Hi Guest,

In answer to your question regarding electric heat vs gas. Electric heat provides drier more even heat than gas. In Italy, most of the deck ovens are electric and they can reach some pretty high temperatures–650-700 degrees. A few gas ovens can reach temperatures of over 700–maybe 750 tops.

The thing about wood, is not just the fuel, it is also the oven. Wood-burning ovens are made of refractory material which absorbs and holds the heat. Wood-fired stone ovens have a very, very dry type of heat, while gas-fired stone ovens still have a hint of moisture to them. I guess if they made an electric stone oven, it would be more similar to wood in its dryness.

Electric deck ovens should be comparable to most deck ovens, especially if they are lined with stone. I think the only drawbacks are price of electricity and size of power line to the unit. I think they may operate on 3 phase power only–but perhaps smaller units use 220.
 
Robert,

I wasn’t certain when you will need the dough formulation for the DiFara clone, but since I have run some numbers for the dough batch size you requested, including baker’s percents, I have set them forth below.

Actually, I think there are at least three possible dough formulations that you may wish to consider over time. The first is the DiFara clone mentioned above. That dough is essentially an “emergency” dough because it is produced in only 1-2 hours time. To get any fermentation in the dough in that time, you will usually need a lot of yeast. Also, you will usually use warm water in order to get an above average finished dough temperature, typically over 90 degrees F (but less than 100 degrees F). I tend to doubt that Dom DeMarco temperature adjusts the water he uses to make his dough, although it is possible that he does so in a general manner, as by using cooler water in the summer and warmer water in the winter. I think he just uses municipal NY water right out of the tap.

The disadvantage of the few-hours dough is that it will be weak in the crust flavor department and the texture will not be as good as it might be if it were subjected to a much longer fermentation time. I believe Dom relies on using a high oven temperature and a fairly long bake time to achieve decent crust coloration and a tolerable chewiness, and otherwise compensates for the shortcomings of the dough by using high-quality tomatoes (the DOP San Marzanos), first-rate cheeses and other quality toppings, in generous quantities.

A second possibility is to use a much longer fermentation time, at room temperature, as is typically done in Naples. Depending on when you would need the dough (e.g., for the lunch crowd or the dinner crowd), the fermentation time could be, say, 8-12 hours or more. The yeast levels will usually be reduced and the salt (and sometimes, hydration) levels will usually be increased so that the dough doesn’t overferment before the desired use time. This solution should produce a better result, in terms of crust flavor and texture, than using the DiFara few-hours dough mentioned above.

A third possibility is to use cold fermentation of the dough, even though this is not done in Naples with 00 doughs (other than for brief holdover of the dough). The dough formulation would have to be changed for this application, but it would be similar to other cold fermentation dough formulations. Its principal advantage is that it gives you better control over the dough management and inventory of dough balls. An example of a restaurant that uses a cold fermented Caputo 00 Pizzeria dough is A16 in San Francisco.

I’d be happy to offer assistance on the alternative possibilities, although it may be more appropriate to do so on an offline basis.

For purposes of the dough formulation set forth below, I have assumed that the flour blend is 75% Caputo 00 Pizzeria flour and 25% King Arthur Sir Lancelot (KASL) high-gluten flour, both by weight. I have indicated salt at 2%, but that number can be reduced if desired if the dough doesn’t quite rise fast enough in the short window or if the crust is too salty. I have indicated 60% as the hydration ratio, to keep it intentionally on the high side but safely between the rated 55-57% absorption rate (AR) for the Caputo 00 Pizzeria flour and the 63% +/- 2% AR for the KASL (or All Trumps, if used). With experimentation and experience, that number can also be adjusted to suit your particular situation.

Robert’s DiFara Few-Hours Dough Clone Formulation, 15-lb. Batch Size
100%, Flour, 9.13 lb. (6.85 lb. Caputo 00 Pizzeria flour and 2.28 lb. KASL)
60%, Water (tap), 5.48 lb.
2%, Salt (sea salt, if desired), 0.18 lb. (2.88 oz., or just under 5 T.)
2.5%, Fresh yeast, 3.65 oz.
Thickness factor = 0.086
Dough weight = 15 lb.
Pizza size = 10”
Individual dough ball weight = 6.75 oz.
Number of dough balls = about 35
(Note: For the 11” pizza size, the above dough batch will make about 29 dough balls, each 8.17 oz.)

For dough preparation purposes, I would completely dissolve the salt in the water, and then add the flour blend combined with the fresh yeast (which can be crumbled on top of the flour). I would knead in accordance with the recommended times for your particular mixer, but I would be careful as not to overknead, The finished dough should be a bit tacky. It can then be divided and scaled, oiled lightly, and placed in dough trays and covered. Dom DeMarco uses wood dough boxes, and attributes part of his success to using such boxes, but they are hard to come by (Marsal, the oven manufacturer, sells them) and they are more expensive than the plastic dough boxes. After about 1 1/2 to 2 hours at room temperature, the dough balls should be ready to be formed. I would form them on the bench, without tossing the skins and without using a rolling pin. For bake temperature, I would start with about 650-675 degrees F, and work up (or down) from there if necessary. Good luck.

Peter
 
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