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suger in dough

Otis,

If lilian is using the Caputo 00 Pizzeria flour, that flour has a protein content of 11.5-12.5%. With 80% All Trumps and 20% Caputo 00, the “effective” protein content would be around 13.7% (using the mid-range of the 00 flour).

I agree that 0.125% IDY does not sound like a lot, but lilian is fermenting the dough at room temperature and it doesn’t really take a lot of yeast for an 8-hour room-temperature fermentation. In saying this, I assume that her finished dough temperature is in the proper range and that her room temperature is normal. I read recently of a fellow in the UK who is making a NY style dough (but using a combination of French flour and bread flour) and he uses 0.026% IDY for a 20-hour room-temperature fermentation. Neapolitan doughs often use similar quantities of yeast for similar fermentation periods, but the yeast is usually in the form of fresh yeast.
 
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TY otis TY pizzanerd
the OO that i am using is in the 9% range
water is 60%
mixing finished temp is 75
do less water result in crispier crust ?
i have tried a pizza at amici in california and i am trying to produce something closer to it
the crust is cripsy yet flodable,soft and chewy cooked in an 700 or maybe 800 degree wood oven
what i know that it is fermented at room temp
my question is what are the factors that contribute to creating such a crust
TY
 
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lilian,

If your 00 flour is in the 9% range, then the total “effective” protein content for your particular 80/20 blend is around 13%.

I am not personally familiar with the Amici pizzas but I have read that the dough is made from a high-protein all-purpose flour (which I take to mean one with a higher protein content than some other brand) and is fermented at room temperature. The pizzas are baked at 700 degrees F.

In order to get a crispy crust, you really want to have enough water in the dough. It is somewhat counterintuitive that that should be so, but a high hydration level allows the dough to have increased porosity and to bake longer and permit the water to escape the dough and evaporate and, in the process, produce a crispier crust. In your case, I think your dough can tolerate a higher hydration, perhaps something around 62-63% for the protein content of your flour blend. You didn’t indicate what kind of oven and oven temperatures you have been using, but the oven used plays a significant role in the final crust characteristics. I am speculating a bit here, but since Amici’s is trying to emulate the East coast NY style, they may be using a fairly high hydration all-purpose dough with not much more than salt and a small amount of yeast, and a high oven temperature. With the room-temperature fermentation, their product might be like the classical NY style pizzas made by the early masters before refrigeration was invented.
 
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I hydrate about 61% with a 12% protein winter/spring wheat flour…
the more hydration, crispier the crust, all else the same

there is a difference in quality of protein and I do not understand all the science there
ie, a lower protein flour may produce a more elastic gluten than a higher protein flour

maybe Tom can shed some light on that…finding which ones from the mills is difficult, with all the blending and processing…
I think the Caputo 00 at 9% produces a more elastic gluten that some flours do at 12%,
Otis
 
Otis,

You are correct about the differences in quality of protein for different flours, and that is also true of 00 flours, even among competing brands. Traditionally, 00 flours have required long mix/knead times to properly develop the small amount of gluten-forming protein of such flours. The Italian Pizza Napoletana association that specifies what a “Pizza Napoletanaâ€
 
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do you think that mixing the dough slowly on first speed can create a better crust
like chris bianco or others they do it by hand and the mixer that you have mentioned
does it mix slower than the planetery ?
 
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lilian,

If I mentally put the periods and commas in the right places in your statement, and if I understood your questions correctly, apparently planetary mixers do not perform the same as the Italian mixers I mentioned, making it unlikely that you will be able to replicate the results of those mixers using a planetary mixer, even at low speed. As far as hand kneading is concerned, I believe Chris Bianco is still kneading his doughs by hand. To the best of my knowledge, he is using an organic flour from Giusto’s that is prepared to his specifications. I am pretty certain it is not a high-gluten flour. If you are thinking of hand kneading a high-gluten dough using the All Trumps, that might be doable in a home setting if you use as high a hydration as possible and use one or more autolyse or similar rest periods. However, it is not an approach I would recommend for commercial volumes of dough.
 
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sorry nerd
my question is do you think that slow mixing can result in a better crust using the formula that i have ?
80% alltrump
20% 00flour
0.125 % idy
2.2% salt
1.0%oil
0.5% suger
60% water
 
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pizzanerd,

I use a Fleetwood barrel mixer…like the large industrial baker mixers except much smaller, 2 arms, I mix 16 pounds of flour at a time,
Do you know that mixer and if so, any thoughts on it ?

Otis
 
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lilian:
my question is do you think that slow mixing can result in a better crust using the formula that i have ?
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lilian,

I don’t have a definitive answer to your question. However, talking generally, I think you still want to do the right things–including combining the ingredients properly, achieving the proper finished dough temperature consistent with your room-temperature fermentation, and slightly underkneading the dough. Depending on the type and size of mixer you will be using, and the dough batch size you will be making, you will have to do some experimentation to determine the mixer speeds and mix/knead times you will need to achieve those conditions.
 
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Lilian;
The key here is to keep the dough under developed. Dough structure is developed through high speed mixing. This is fine for bread doughs where you want to have a fine, tight knit crumb structure, but when you want to have an open, porous structure you have to think under developed dough. The best way to get an under developed dough is through short mixing time at relatively low mixing speeds. As you might already know, I have said many times that pizza doughs are never developed, they are always under developed. This is why we mix the dough just until it takes on a smooth appearance, no longer. We never use the “window” test. This is where the dough is stretched in your hands to form a fine membrane like window, indicating full gluten development, which is not what we want in the case of pizza, so I don’t advocate using this test. We also mix our doughs at low speed until the ingredients are hydrated, and then go to medium speed to finish mixing the dough to nothing more than a smooth appearance. Dome properly, and it ain’t hard, you can emulate hand mixing or Artoflex mixing with a planetary mixer by using low and medium speeds and keeping your mixing times short. Seldom have I ever mixed a pizza dough for more than about 10 minutes (combined low and medium speed) using a planetary mixer.
Tom Lehmann/the Dough Doctor
 
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Lilian;
There are a number of distributors for Caputo flour. Check with your local flour distributors to see if they carry it. If you Google “Caputo Flour” you will be able to get the name of a San Francisco wholesaler that should be able to direct you to the nearest distributor. We included Caputo flour in our last pizza course so our students would have a chance to work with it. It works well, producing a slightly softer, more extensible dough than most other domestic flours. You will probably need to reduce the dough absorption slightly from what you are presently using when you use Caputo, but that’s about the only change you’ll need to make. Give it a try to see if it will work in your application.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor
 
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lilian,

If you call the U.S. importer of the Caputo 00 flours, Orlando Food Sales, at 201-369-9197, and ask for Fred Mortati, either he or someone else in his office should be able to tell you the name of the stocking distributor nearest you.
 
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TY Tom
I am sorry what course is that are you baking instructor?
sorry i did not know
 
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lilian:
is that the molino caputo 00 pizza flour type ?
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lilian,

Yes. There are actually three Caputo 00 flours used for making pizza dough–the Caputo Pizzeria, Caputo Extra Blu (with a lower protein content than the Pizzeria), and Caputo Red (with a higher protein content than the Pizzeria). The one that most operators use is the Caputo Pizzeria although a few combine that with the Caputo Red. Fred Mortati at Orlando should be able to help you with a selection for your application. In the meantime, you can see the flours if you go to chefswarehouse.com.
 
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Ty pizza nerd
have you ever worked with any one of these type of flour your thoughts on that ty
 
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