Is this not exactly what D-no is saying? Gross income minus expenses yeilds net income. Yet you say he is wrong. However your quote says he is right.
You cant have it both ways. Which is it, Oh Mighty Guru of the IRS and DOL?
I’m a newbie to these boards, but I’m an old school and LONG time pizza guy. Next week, I hit 24 years. I was an Education major at University of Vermont. Dominos Pizza was how I paid my way through school, but the money is better than teaching, and I’m a night owl anyway. Give me a day job, and I’ll probably die…
Gregster is reminiscent of an employee I just took off the schedule. He’s a 14 year veteran who recently began to unravel, so to speak. He was always somewhat annoying, but was reliable and honest. Once he became unreliable and dishonest, and showed neither remorse nor willingness to change, I took him off my shifts. Gregster’s opinions don’t exactly constitute uncharted waters. Maybe JFK’s words (“Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country”) are wasted and/or ignored.
I’ve given most of the posts by the regulars on this BB a cursory “once-over” and it gave me a rough idea of what each one’s basic personality is. To Gregster, I’d suggest that if I were voluntarily “losing” $7,000.00 a year, I’d have long since moved on. The employer isn’t mandated to pay the maximum allowable mileage, but they ARE mandated to pay at least the minimum allowable mileage. Furthermore, the employer is NOT obligated to give you a job. You are there to fulfill their needs, not vice versa.
Some drivers have a disproportionate sense of entitlement. Personally, I DON’T subscribe to that philosophy. I DON’T bite the hand that feeds me. My franchisee likes me and is favorably disposed towards me. I like working for him. I knew his kids LONG before I’d ever heard of Domino’s Pizza. I am reliable, honest, and hard-working and I expect the same from my crew. My store runs well because my crew is rock solid and we are fiercely protective of our earning opportunity. Many of us are homeowners, many of us are parents, and the old timers carefully teach the newcomers the tricks of the trade. Name any other job where a 19 year old kid with no formal or specialized training can work 40 hours a week and parlay that into a 40K+ job. Most of the newbies NEVER had it so good before.
There is more to being a good driver than simply delivering orders. If you have a deeper understanding of the job, you realize that you are an ambassador for your company. In most cases, you are the only face-to-face exposure a customer will have with your company. You should be courteous, expeditious, and helpful. Your coworkers are like your family. Occasionally, there are bound to be skirmishes, but at the end of the day, you should have reconciled your differences. Workloads should be fairly distributed and you should NOT shirk your fair share. You need to be aware that your actions affect other people, and you need to be mindful of HOW they affect them. I don’t like to have “me-first” people. This creates a situation in which everybody is so concerned about other people trying to take advantage that they lose sight of the need to be expeditious.
The job has some drawbacks. This is an incontrovertible fact, and must be accepted. Bad weather is an occupational hazard. Road and traffic conditions are occupational hazards. One pie runs are an occupational hazard. Rather than squawk about it, or try to scam a second run, take the run and get back! Stiffers are an occupational hazard. There are 4 reasons people don’t tip:
- they don’t realize it’s customary. Some people aren’t aware of the nature of tipping. Also, we live in a global village and in many countries, the concept of tipping simply doesn’t exist.
- They can’t afford to. Years ago, there was a woman with three kids. I don’t know where the father was, but she was a single mom who really didn’t have two nickels to rub together. Each kid got a pizza for their birthday, and this constituted a substantial extravagance for her. The kids were SOOOO excited, and I got a kick out of their joy.
- They’ve received bad service. I realize this is like killing the messenger, but you can’t reasonably expect someone who feels mistreated or unheard to reward the only emissary of the company that angered them.
- Some people just WON’T tip. This is the one category I don’t have much patience for. This is where the real jerks are found, and jerks come in all flavors.
Good drivers know their responsibilities go far beyond simple delivery. They must be timely, accurate, friendly, patient, and understanding. They must navigate traffic, construction, and inclement weather. They must be able to quickly resolve issues. They need to be able to quickly find tricky addresses (How many of us have had the classic “third floor, in the back, no lights on the stairs” run?) They have to have infallible “crap-detectors.” They need to be fair, trustworthy, honest, resilient, and enduring. To boil this down, they need to be PROFESSIONAL. We pay our people well, and this allows us to retain the best. All but one of my driving crew are members of the “1K” club, meaning a thousand dollars in sales on a shift. The one guy who hasn’t? He’s been with us for a week. Give him time.
What you failed to notice was that I pointed out the difference between wages, and tips.
Tips are not wages. Both are income. Get it?
My employer is breaking the law. You think I should be asking what more I can do for them? HA!
Yes, many of the ‘employers’ here also suggest that I ignore the obvious infractions of the law and just move on. Well, isn’t that just nice for them to expect employees to allow the exploitation of workers to continue. I guess they are just looking out for one another.
You don’t have that quite right. The employer is mandated fully reimburse the employee for ALL business expenses when an employee is paid minimum wage or less. What is the “minimum allowable mileage�?? Many here would say none or almost nothing. When it comes to minimum wage employees, the law say the minimum is to FULLY REIMBURSE ALL BUSINESS EXPENSES. Get it?
Furthermore, the employer is supposed to pay the employees business expenses, not vice versa. Shifting part of the operating costs of the business in unreimbursed expenses onto minimum wage employees is against the law
Some employers have a disproportionate sense of entitlement to drivers tips in attempting to offload operating expenses onto drivers.
So since I am getting a paycheck I should ignore that the law is being broken?
Just because the tips are good does not give an employer the right to ignore the law and shift operating expenses onto drivers. Tips are the sole property of the employee.
Expecting that your employer comply with minimum wage laws is not selfish nor does it convey a ‘me first’ attitude. If a company expects employees to be ambassadors and represent the company well, they shout treat the employee well by at least paying minimum wage and fully reimbursing them in accordance with the law.
I am glad you pay your drivers well and it is right and good that you expect a lot from them. The vast majority of delivery drivers are not paid well and reimbursement in the industry runs in the 20 to 30 cent per mile range. Many employers pay tip credit wages and no mileage at all.
Gregster, you missed your calling dude. With that broad brush of yours you should have been a house painter. And they get to charge all their materials to the job with a mark up. :lol:
Quote from TTPG http://www.tipthepizzaguy.com/discussion/thread.php?num=15756&ip=1
not only has he got his paint brush out (again) I think the fumes have got to him as well.
‘The shop owners at PMQ are pretty fired up about the lawsuits it seems’ - owners? fired up? where exactly is this???
You are living in your own little world where you interpret many things much differently than everyone else. You post at TTPG clearly shows this (again).
That’s funny! The very post you quoted is someone from here saying that they’d rather fire drivers and hire family before paying employees IAW minimum wage law, but somehow you think I am the one who sees smoke where there is no fire. :roll:
I don’t have a brush big enough to cover all of the shops violating minimum wage laws.
Post some numbers to show that your shop is in compliance if you feel so bad about my ‘broad brush’ and accidental spatter! If you’re in compliance, you got nothing to fear. D-No and I disagree on a few things, but at least he pays his drivers IAW the law. I got no problem with him. He knows that my ‘broad brush’ doesn’t apply to him. Why do some of you worry that I painted you? Guilty conscience?
Feel free to refute what I say, but since you cannot, all you have left is to attack the messenger.
You ever win any lawsuits Greg? You ARE biting the hand that feeds you. Simple human nature would suggest that your owners, unless they are colossal morons, should be fed up with your self-serving dog and pony show. By continuing to work for your employer, whether or not you agree with their policies, you are tacitly expressing acceptance of your situation, and you dishonor them, and you cheapen yourself by taking their money while you are actively seeking to infringe upon their bottom line. Beyond that, regardless of whether or not the world is measuring up to your particular scale of lawfulness, you display the very attitude that perpetuates the stereotype of the selfish driver. You reduce pizza delivery to slash and burn revolutionary guerrilla warfare. Integrity is a scarce commodity in this world. Don’t squander yours on a nickel and dime principle.
Do you determine if the piemakers need any dough, cheese, sauce, etc.? Do you help the pie makers make pizza? After all, it gets the pies out more quickly, impressing the customer, and ultimately putting money in your pocket. Do you hustle to answer phones? You have a unique opportunity to make a good first impression… Do you make sure the cut table is stocked with boxes? Your manager might already have his or her hands full… Are you attentive to all the little things that facilitate the efficient operation of the store? Do you help carry-out customers even though you won’t get a nickel from them? Do you speed or otherwise break laws while driving? It imparts a bad image to your business, and it angers law enforcement…as a rule, I don’t rile people with badges. Do you yield to pedestrians? It’s a good way to improve the image of your business…
Personally speaking, if an employee alleged criminal violations of labor laws, then failed to prove wrongdoing on my part, I’d take them off my schedule at my earliest available convenience. Machiavellian? Maybe… In an “at-will” state, I can act with a certain degree of impunity. I’d certainly rather have my malcontents working for the competition. It’s better for my morale and detracts from theirs. The local Papa Johns is managed by a guy we fired. He was a lousy pie maker, completely un-coachable, with a know it all attitude. We sent him packing, and he manages the competition with a weak skill set, and poor pie making ability. Pizza is a high stress business. Given the fact that there is already WAY too much free radical BS floating around, why needlessly create more? A little give and take goes a long way, and the inflexibility you display will likely be revisited upon you. When you find yourself needing a little slack, you are a lot less likely to receive it.
Regarding the compensation of ALL business expenses…should I pay you more if you choose to drive a vehicle that is expensive to operate? Let’s say you and another driver deliver the same sales. If your vehicle gets 12 mpg, should I pay you more than the other driver who hypothetically drives a vehicle that gets 25 mpg? You’re overlooking one important point of the IRS’ Standard Mileage Reimbursement…Those figures are legally optional, and it says as much on the IRS’ site.
Compromise doesn’t imply weakness on your part, but rather tolerance and sagacity. If you make yourself irreplaceable to your manager, your manager won’t need to replace you. In short, don’t be a cut throat, and your throat might not be cut. I consider my alternatives, and I’ll stay right where I am. If you make a choice to stay in a situation you disapprove of, you’re not being a bringer of change, you’re being simply foolish.
Gregster,
Please post proof that you have never violated the law! Please post proof, to my satifactio,n that you are are valuable worker in your employers operation. Please post proof to my satisfaction, that you have never never abused your spouse or children.
I could post right now that I pay drivers $12.00 per hour and $4.00 per run with the average run being a double with a total round trip distance of 5 miles, would that make it true? no. would it make it your business, no. Have you read the constitution? IDK Do you believe in all the rights defined in the constitution you and I both defended? Obviously not.
You are obviously happy with your position because you have stayed. You have no reason to stay. If you have been legally wronged, you have grounds to procede with a complaint you do not need to stay there and be financially raped nught after night. You logig for staying there is about as sound as your logic for how you are being abused.
You would not last a month in my store because if you think I am cheating you I will give you the oppoutunity to go work for someone who will treat you like you deserve. In eight years, one driver has left because he felt he was being treated unfairly compared to how he was treated in other shops. He also said he was making more money per night, with less runs, than any other shop he had worked at. Go figure.
Again you are suggesting that since I get a paycheck from them that I should ignore the violations of the law and just accept it.
“Tacitly†means that I am silently approving of what they are doing. That is far from the truth. It is the same thing as saying I am looking the other way in ignoring the wrongdoing. Sorry, but it is YOU that appears to approve of what they are doing and ask that I look the other way in return for my paycheck.
It is not MY scale. It is Federal law. I’m sorry that you too feel that it is selfish to be fully reimbursed and paid in accordance with the law. The “slash and burn revolutionary guerrilla warfare†is what is being done by the big3 stores to their drivers on a nationwide scale. If they had integrity, they wouldn’t be skimming nickels and dimes from every delivery their drivers take.
WTF does all of this have to do with them violating min wage laws? Do you feel like if employees do not meet expectations that employers are exempted from compliance with the law?!?!
I hope you know that discussing pay and work condition are protected rights under the NLRA. Firing an employee for discussing those is against the law and Penalties can be assessed against the employer for doing so. Persons who report violations of the FLSA are also protected from retaliation in the same manner.
Again, WTF does this have to do with exceptions to the law? There are no exemptions for good or bad performance.
I suggest that you look on the DOL’s website when it come to determining what rate of pay and reimbursement are acceptable under the FLSA. The DOL is the controlling agency, not the IRS in this instance.
Another employer that wants employees to be “tolerant†of minimum wage violations. It is not MY rules that are being violated. You mistakenly and repeatedly try to shift the onus on to what I believe and away from what the law requires. Foolishness is to encourage others to look the other way when they see wage laws being violated. Not surprising considering the source.
Rick G, since you have not refuted anything I have posted about the law, I see no point in debating your opinions about me or what my motivations are.
At least D-No tried to imply that employee performance has some bearing on whether or not min wage laws must be complied with.
Lets try something simpler to discuss:
Is it legal for an employer subject to the FLSA to make deductions from a minimum wage employees pay for work uniforms? Yes or No?
I am a minimum wage employee. I am paid $7.25 while in the store and $4 when clocked out on a run. My employer charges $12 for uniform shirts which is deducted from my pay. Is that a violation of the FLSA minimum wage? Yes or No?
Here is a clue:
http://www.dol.gov/esa/whd/regs/compliance/whdfs16.pdf
Requirements
Uniforms: The FLSA does not require that employees wear uniforms. However, if the wearing of a uniform is required by some other law, the nature of a business, or by an employer, the cost and maintenance of the uniform is considered to be a business expense of the employer. If the employer requires the employee to bear the cost, it may not reduce the employee’s wage below the minimum wage of $7.25 per hour effective July 24, 2009. Nor may that cost cut into overtime compensation required by the Act.
For example, if an employee who is subject to the statutory minimum wage of $7.25 per hour (effective July 24, 2009) is paid an hourly wage of $7.25, the employer may not make any deduction from the employee’s wages for the cost of the uniform nor may the employer require the employee to purchase the uniform on his/her own. However, if the employee were paid $7.75 per hour and worked 30 hours in the workweek, the maximum amount the employer could legally deduct from the employee’s wages would be $15.00 ($.50 X 30 hours).
For the law itself covering this, see this referance:
ehh no he doesn’t say that at all. Read his post and quote the bit where he says he’d rather fire people than PAY MW.
but you’re having a good go at paint brushing everyone on here even though you know little or nothing about us all. Your main gripe and the lawsuits are all about BIG 3 shops yet this is a site for…?? Get your target audience right.
My business is in full compliance with all of my local laws and I have absolutely nothing to fear Gregster. The day I need to seek or gain any approval from you or anyone on this board about my businesses legal compliance is the day I give in. Yet again you twist my words I have never said that have paint brushed me. You paint brush this whole community without knowing anything about us.
I have no need to refute anything you state as you do not hold any control over any of the issues at hand. All you do is to dilute, corrupt and damage the important message and task of making sure companies comply with the law. If you were an ambassador of anything it certainly wouldn’t be for the cause you hold so dear!
Can you choose a side please? Did I say YOU were in violation of the law? Are you or are you not a member of “this whole community”? :roll:
I think it pretty clear which side I’m on Gregster or are you blind to that as well?
as usual you ignore all the questions you can’t answer and focus on one bit of irrelevance. I think the point I made is quite clear.
So come on then, answer the other points or are you going to disappear again for a few weeks???
You are being paid more than the required tipped minimum wage while you are on delivery. If your employer is taking the allowable $5.12 tip credit and you are earning at least this much in tips your employer can take up to $1.87 cents from your pay while you are on delivery to cover your uniform costs. I have referenced this for you multiple times in the past but here it is again, a bit dated, but a DOL document that you yourself have referenced on this board plenty of times.
Page 39 of http://www.dol.gov/esa/whd/FOH/FOH_Ch30.pdf
I have been pretty clear also. Whether or not I or any other driver breaks any law has no bearing on whether or not an employer is obligated to pay minimum wage. It’s irrelevant. Simple as that.
My employer IS NOT “taking the allowable $5.12 tip credit”. No employer that I know of takes advantage of tip credit in that manner. If they were to do so, they would be required to make up for more than the minimum wage in periods where tips did not make up the difference. Why would they want to guarantee that I make at least $9.12 ($4 plus $5.12 tip credit) for every hour that I worked? For employers that are seeking to pay less than minimum wage, that’s a ‘no brainer’. :roll:
If you ever DO find and employer that is paying in the manner you suggest, please ask them why they do it as I would be quite interested to hear their answer.
True to form, no one so far is willing to answer the very simple question I asked. In the example I gave, is the employer breaking the law? Yes or No?
Where did I mention drivers breaking the law???
My first question was ‘quote the bit where he says he’d rather fire people than PAY MW.’
So as not to avoid your question
Is it legal for an employer subject to the FLSA to make deductions from a minimum wage employees pay for work uniforms? Yes or No?
Yes it can be legal for an employee to do this. For info please reference page 39 of http://www.dol.gov/esa/whd/FOH/FOH_Ch30.pdf
And of course if they did this they would also be guaranteeing that their employees earned MORE than minimum wage for every hour they worked, tips or not! Can you give me an example of ANY employer that pays tipped employees in this way?
I’ll take your continued silence on that matter as a resounding “NO”. :roll: