I just picked myself off the floor. I am happy you have many delivery vehicles at your disposal. I am glad you made it clear you do not live with mom nor that she lives with you. I am happy you have a retirement plan…as everyone should. I am happy you moved on out of the pizza world…as 99% of the sane world understands that “PIZZA DELIVERY DRIVER” is not really a career. Take a look at other jobs in the world. Not many have kept up with the real cost of living. There is a great divide between people with money and people without. I agree with only one thing that the current admin talks about. We have no real middle class anymore. You either struggle or you do not. 99% of polititians do not…so they really do not understand where people are coming from. Now, that said…I personally give away a lot and try to do as much as I can to help anyone I can. Do I think the gov should bail out poorly managed businesses? NO! Nor should they give endless entitlements to people that only want the handout and not the assistance part of it all. So on the pay point…I agree with you. Your way of trying to make a point…that really $ucks! Take a few hours and go re-read all the comments you have made here and the responses. You will be amazed at how often people have agreed and worked with you on things. The problem that arises is you are like a Presidential canidate…you have 4 talking points that are the answer to every question. Life is not that simple. Learn that and you will achieve what you desire! :idea:
To the OP: I found in my business that delivery fee did not reduce my delivery frequency or volume. Maybe 5 comments about it being too high, with the balance of comments being “We knew it would have to happen” or some variant. I have been unable to secure from anyone making the claim about Free Delivery any data to support the claim. I would be most interested in correlational elements as well to describe how product pricing level interacts with the sales and fee. None to date and been asking since soon after I joined the pizza fee world in 2006 or so.
Ah, but this being a free market, there are more than those two really rather myopic options. there are a plethora of options as to how actual business owners answer the question of how to manage delivery fee costs. [size=2]And we roll around this wheel once again.[/size]
We know quite well by now that that your position is that every store should charge what it is that you define as “fair”. That’s the “bottom line” you asked for. All of it really does boil down to your demand that everyone comply with your own business model, but you are not willing to commit to operating a business yourself using your “models”. It doesn’t make you dumb, pointless or irrelevant . . . it makes you detached from current market trends and realities impacting ownership. The reality is that every business exists for the owner to make profit of some sort wherein he/she/they make a return on investment (some of which is financial), and hopefully a standard of living that includes saving for retirement (and/or future business disasters).
The market in existence today for food service industries is that services are becoming more and more “fee for service”. There are fewer and fewer “all in” pricing models, and there are fewer ‘freebies’ in all segments of the industry. That goes for fees coming down to owners as well as pricing going out to customers. The market has had a profound paradigmatic shift that you do not acknowledge. McDonald’s now charges for that extra dipping sauce, pizzerias charge for delivery, and more and more sandwich places are a la carte. There are market pressures that employees do not control, they cannot change, and cannot deny . . . and those pressures are what owners must assess in determining how best to generate gross sales increases to stay viable and to keep customers spending. Labor cost models have changed every bit as much as cheese market price trends over the last 3 years. Food distributor business models have changed. Insurance costs have changed. Consumer buying and preference patterns have changed. there are more and profound changes in store for the food service industry, and all levels involved need to be aware and ready for them. Delivery Drivers will likely get another shift in the perception and definition of their responsibilities, value and worth to both businesses and the consumer public with whom they interact. Heck everyone else is having to adjust . . . makes sense that pizzeria industry should figure out how to adjust as well.
All of these things are elements in business that impact the owner decisions on how best to manage his resources and produce the product that he/she/they want to produce and generate the desired return. Owners are not the same as government entitlement programs that can simply shell out more cash and raise taxes, they are not service organizations that exist for the sole benefit of consumers and employees. they are entities created by invested ownership parties with the expressed goals they outline in their business plan (written or imagined). An enlightened ownership will consider how best to juggle all the elements so as to maintain loyalty of staff and customers in and among all the changes and puzzles and pieces that go into operating the business. “Fair” is not a word that belongs in a serious conversation about business or labor relationships. “Fair” is a vague and meaningless word that changes from personal perspectives and even daily attitude shifts.
Last point: HOW ABOUT THIS: If the customer does not get delivery, then they are not assessed a delivery fee. driver does not receive any funds as a result of that order. When a customer requests delivery, then that customer is assessed a fee, and the driver in most cases receives a payment equal to some percentage (from 1 to 100%) of that assessed fee. (Bodegahwy gets a pass and so do all the owners using their own cars). What in reality happens is that the delivery fee is held in ‘de facto’ escrow or trusteeship by the business, who then distributes the previously agreed portion of said funds to the employee. The only way those funds pass through to the employee is when the fee is paid by customer, so playing the “General Fund” is neither technically correct, nor practicably supportable.
Bottom line to delivery customer is that they gotta pay an additional fee for the addition of delivery service . . . call it another menu item, if you will called, “delivery service” . . . “and your bottom line total with tax and delivery fee will be $34.48”.
After what Nick concisely ( 
) wrote
[size=7]CHECKMATE !!![/size]
Game over … NO FURTHER DISCUSSIONS REQUIRED
Very well put Nick. You have once again eloquently hit the proverbial nail on the head for both the OP and PPG2270.
My “myopic” view pointed out that if a store cannot provide delivery service as a result of fair pricing for all it has two options (cease delivery operations or cease operations altogether.) What I neglected to mention was that when the store’s carry out (and eat-in if applicable) volume does not adequately cover expenses, option one will lead to option two.
The posters here believe that your word is Gospel. I have never put my ideas into practice (yet) but then again I have never failed either.
Rook to King. Check.
Sorry PPG
You have been checkmated out of the game totally and effectively by the truisms that Nick clearly outlined. Please cease commenting on something you are being beaten hands down every time you post.
Leave the game now.
The last bastion of the indefensible is attempts at personal attack. They don’t take my word as Gospel . . . and they NEVER should. What many who are here in this forum believe, and have seen in their own real world ownership and management experiences, is that there are miniscule few A/B situations in the world of business. One just steps up to all the information they can gather, and makes a courageous choice. Some are more difficult than others, like closing my shop in the middle of the nation’s worst recession and leaving an entire community, my employees and my family without the anchor that has been Nick’s Pizzeria for nearly eight years.
Most every owner here, either long time readers or active posters knows that, in some version of fashion, failure is most accurately defined as never having tried in the first place, or facing adversity and then laying down and giving up to wallowing in bitterness and consternation. Poke at me . . . spew at me . . . that will never change the mirco- and macroeconomic dynamics of operating a business in United States as a profit enterprise.
Don’t call check unless you’re actually playing the game. Armchair operations, video games and kibitzing around the internet forums is a world of difference from having your actual fat in the fire.
A double checkmate to Nick 
PPG. If you cannot make constructive comments or posts without attacking the intergrity of hard working business people who put everything they have on the line then you should leave this forum and join your buddy (or is it you) Gregster on his pathetic drivers specific forum.
It is not a crime to invest your money and then work hard and long to get a reasonable investment. Some unfortunately for no reason of their own never get to enjoy the fruits of their labour, but you think you have the knowledge and know all to berate and accuse them (us) of being dishonest and greedy.
If you only had a 1/4 of the integrity and guts of people like Nick and other fine individuals who played but did not realise their dreams, then you may have some creedence in what you write, but until you can walk in their or any other owners shoes then you have no right to make your gutless comments about failing.
You contribute nothing here worthwhile only your misguided and vile comments. You’re a waste of oxygen as you gutlessly group all owners of greed and then have the gall to infer Nick as a failure.
Time to leave the building PPG.
Talking of my own past experience only. I have had success and I have had failure. What do the two have 100% in common with each other. I TRIED!!! PPG your views are unrealistic in a real world setting. Maybe in some perfect world where everyone’s dream scenarios come true you would have a leg to stand on. Flashback to reality… I will give you this… you are not a failure. Oh, I also need to point out nor are you a success! After you have built this empire for the advancement of pizza delivery drivers…drop us a link so we can see how we have all done it wrong. :idea: :arrow: :!:
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I am not Gregster. That was proven a long time ago. I do not endorse Greg or his website. He is a hypocrite who denounces the business while choosing to work for the very conditions he “hates”, saying it “works for him.” I have no use for Gregster. A quick trip to TTPG (oh no drivers have a forum!) would show the classic arguments we have had over this very topic.
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Nick’s business failed. These things happen every day. I did not call him a failure or any other name as so many (including you) have so callously done to me. I suppose that 14+ years in the business in all aspects save ownership makes me a “waste of oxygen.” Get real. I pointed out the options (cease delivery or close business) and pointed out that one may lead to the other. Nick stopped delivering and closed shortly thereafter. That is fact. Personally, I would tend to listen to fresh ideas over ones that have failed.
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This is not an exclusive club. Get used to the fact that other people beside owners (gasp!) may have intelligent/alternative ideas about the business. I am not going anywhere.
I know that the decision to close was not easy. I feel bad for each employee who must now seek employment elsewhere. My point was that you stopped delivering a short time ago. I don’t know if the carry out volume was not sufficient to maintain operations or what happened, but the only thing I was doing was pointing out the correlation between delivery stoppage and subsequent close. It just goes to show that drivers (even when family members) are indeed vital to contined success of those who do deliver, especially in these tough economic times.
By the way I want to point out that I was only using this as an example and it was definitely not a personal attack. A personal attack (especially from me) comes way harsher.
PPG do you ever sit back and read what you write? On the otherside of things, your comment about people other than owners having intelligent/alternative ideas is so true. In my experience it is the lowest level employees that have the best ideas. That said… it does not include employees that have only one agenda…and you are that person. All you care about is the advancement of delivery drivers. You do not care too understand the big picture of the business equation. There is a balancing act that has too work if any business is too survive. You make comments that all trend in one very narrow minded direction that only is there to benefit a very small group of employees. You comment about feeling bad for the employees that will need to find new “JOBS”… well how about the man and family that put it all on the line to provide those jobs for the last whatever number of years. It is so easy to comment and belittle a person but until you walk in those shoes…you should not! It shows to everyone your lack of real world experience and paints a very clear picture of your inexperience and what could only lead any business under your mindset too fail. The people on this site have combined hundreds of years in real business ownership rolls. We have all had ups and downs. I am sure we have all walked that fine ledge at some point…and yes some have fallen to the bad side of things, others have done very well, and a majority just try to balance the day to day and keep things going. That includes having a place to offer employment to people like you and many others. The group that will almost always be workers and not owners. Within this group are 98% that are content, 1% that will take the next step and open their own place, be it a success or failure, and 1% that make life for hardworking owners a PITA! They think they know it all and can do it better. Well, prove them all wrong and lets see it! Get over yourself and with all your worldly experience, 14 years in pizza (why did that end?), and whatever else you have too offer… go open a place of your own and I wish you the best of luck. :arrow:
Yes I read what I write. My “agenda” is to mesh successful operations with fair pay for everyone. Right now, the drivers are on the short end of the stick. Yes I do feel bad for those (including Nick) who put it on the line and come up short. I mentioned the employees because finding a job is not the easiest thing to do right now (which explains why people are accepting subminimum wages.) I was working full-time in my chosen field even before finishing my master’s degree. I was still, however, delivering part time. My 14+ years came to end because the store owner refuse to acknowledge or entertain the idea that a driver was worth more than $5/hr. Even a driver who had been with the store for 6 years (had once managed the store) and fought tooth and nail to keep the place going despite the economy and having 1/2 the delivery area cut off by faulty roads. I broke bread with this man. I drank beer with this man and celebrated holidays with our families. Greedy $#$@#! If I ever do change the plight of the delivery driver, you will all have that man to thank.
You incorrectly made an assumption that Nick’s closure was in correlation to him ceasing delivery - your one sided train of thought.
Knowing Nick a wee bit better than you I can assure you this had nothing to do with it.
After the GFC Nick’s small population was devestated by mass unemployment (hitting around 25% if I remember correctly)and business and home foreclosures.
Nick confided in me late last year of his plight WHILE HE WAS STILL OFFERING DELIVERY !!!
Your misguided one eyed and blatantly incorrect comments show your lack of clear judgement to hear each others side of an argument.
Credit to you in being a voice for drivers who are being paid sub minimum + tips but in the end of the day it is the choice of any individual to accept or reject their working conditions and pay offered. Yes there are some bad operators out there and major players who use their vast strengths and resources to push the envelope, but in the end of the day no-one is forcing drivers to accept what they get. If they don’t like what they are getting, then vote with their feet.
I would be more supportive of you if I heard you were setting up actions against those who blatantly underpay any individual, be it drivers servers or even the local garbage collector. Unfortunately we live in a world of government regulations where they set laws relating to wages and how much should be paid and how it is incorporated in any one industry. If they say it is the rule that a sub minimum + tips is the go then not one operator is working out of line by doing so if they choose this pay route.
But please do not lump each and every owner as a greedy, ripping off employers.
AND DON’T MAKE UNTRUE OR MISINFORMED ASSUMPTIONS ABOUT ANY DECENT HARD WORKING OPERATOR OF THIS BOARD
And just for the record I have gone through a heap of websites here where I am, and not one outlet has FREE delivery. All charge and all state it on their menu and website. Even Domino’s and Pizza Hut have a pick up and delivery price $7.95 pick up, $10.95 delivery (min $20 for delivery = $6 fee) so does that make every single operator, and the chains, greedy ?? Or does it mean that they are up front saying that this is our price when you decide to pick up but if you want it delivered then there is an additional cost involved?
Oh and yes. We are not in a tipping conditioned society but our drivers normally make tips that more than cover the costs of running their own vehicle for the shift even after we add our delivery fee of anywhere between $5.50 - $8. They get bewteen $2.50 - $4 delivery fee out of what we charge plus a $17 per hour rate. Gee I must be the king of greedy wage ripoff operators.
Dave, you better explain the difference in the Aussie Dollar to the US one before PPG blows a gasket hearing you charge upto $8 delivery fee and pay your drivers $17 an hour. Then share what they get on state holidays with overtime pay! :shock: I am sitting down…
Be a waste of time trying to explain it. He would still say I’m greedy charging for delivery even if we do have to pay time and a quarter on Saturdays, time and three quarters on Sundays and double time and a half on Public Holidays. PLUS 9% of gross wage for compulsory superannuation.
Yeah I’m one greedy, mean son of a b#*ch for keeping part of the delivery fee
Yeah and our dollar is now worth $1.05 US so add 5% onto all our costs.
Obviously things are different “over there.” But here we have operators paying subminimum wages on Saturday, Sunday, and Public Holidays when open. I’m actually not even sure why you are taking part in this, your laws seem to favor workers better than U.S laws (and oh yeah, you’re against it hence your participation.) And I shall reiterate until it sinks in to everyone - the store always keeps the delivery charge.
When shops here in the U.S start paying $17/hr. I won’t worry about things like delivery charges that lower tips. Hell, I won’t worry about tips.
Really Dave…why are you even taking part in this? Oh wait…because you are an intelligent, level headed, and respected contributor here at the TT! The better question is why is PPG taking part in this? PPG you are a carbon copy of your mentor. I won’t mention his name. You have a couple of talking points and sound like a skipping record! I would gladly buy you a one-way ticket to Australia so you could take advantage of their system of driver compensation…but I like Dave too much to bring that down on him.
Daddio…will you please close this thread down as we are once again spinning out of control into the grasp of PPG’s endless rant to forward the movement of delivery driver advancement. I am afraid that PPG might lash out at us “WAY HARSHER” as he stated. I would like to point out something interesting… why is it that only threads that PPG contributes too seem to be the ones that are closed off or deleted? Makes one think… does it not? PPG you insult, disrespect, question others why they speak, etc… I wish we had the little smiley face with the “L” on his forehead. I have never met someone that fits that one more than you. Oh, that stands for lucky…right? :twisted:
I agree this thread has run it’s race right off track and is becoming a slanging match between those who think one way and another who thinks his way. East is East and West is West and never the train shall meet. So I think for all concerned this tread should be closed down.
Scores level nil all, or referring to chess as there have been many checkmate calls - STALEMATE.
See you at the next topic PPG.
Dave just copy and paste all of his posts on another thread… it doesn’t matter what the topic is. His rants are just like others from the past and have no real bearing on the OP’s posts or questions. I would like to make one last comment to PPG…after his own remark about the “WAY HARSHER” blah blah blah… Do not take our civility here as a sign of weakness or silence from others as the true feeling of yourself around here. You have contributed, in my opinion, nothing productive to this board since you joined over a year ago. I just spent some time reading your history and that of a few others. It was a bit entertaining refreshing myself with your point of views on the same issue…over and over and over again. You have taken dozens of threads and turned them into a personal rant on a subject that is nothing more than you complaining about the reality that you worked for a crappy employer that poorly paid you and even though you were buddy buddies…did not listen too you. I would wager a guess that he is making a decent living at his pizza shop and you are nothing more than another disgruntled employee that thinks he should make as much as the owner does because he does more of the work. Newsflash: take the risk and open your own place and then you can reap the benefits…,.if it works! This country used to thrive on capitalism and people worked hard to make a success of themselves. Our new entitlement based lifestyle is a joke and will end up like Europe or the UK. You like so many these days do not want to risk anything to succeed. You are not willing to work for your share. You want it handed to you because the next guy has it. You are the problem with society and you are the reason this country has taken a downturn over recent years. The more our gov and people that think as you do continues to act like they do… the less people like the respectable members here and elsewhere will be willing to put it all on the line and take the risk. You will wake up one day and really be surprised when pay is cut further for your delivery drivers because that is the socialistic way. I know it is worthless to waste time trying to get you to understand any of this as people with your mindset will not open their eyes to anything but their own delusions. I wish you the best in what I am sure will be a lifelong struggle with reality. :!: