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Pizza Oven - Trying to simulate Papa Johns

of course we don’t think just replicating a similar product will lead to success. As important is internal process and marketing. But since we have a clean page to develop recipes I want to have a good start since the options of pizza making are endless.

In my home city many people are making pizza, but in my opinion there is always something they can improve on. No one seems to do it just right. I have tried dozens of companies from all over NA and my favorite so far for appearance and quality is PJ’s.

Keep in mind of course we are trying to appear as a franchise and not a specialty pizza or fine dining establishment. We have our target market in mind.
 
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Thanks papjgirl.

If you think of anything else that would be useful I would appreciate it.

PJ dough is not made in store is it? Is it sent to you fresh and then you refridgerate it ? Any idea of temp and length of time?
 
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We are looking to simulate a Papa Johns style for a couple reasons;
  1. We want to appear to be a franchise. Customers who want a quality product reasonably priced and don’t have a lot of time to spare tend to buy from a franchised store since they know what to expect. There are typically no surprises. A soccer mom pressed for time will choose a franchise over local store due to many considerations. I know that’s not the case all the time, but statistics don’t lie. We don’t believe a franchised pizza is better then an independent, it’s just our target market is better suited for one
  2. I have tried pretty much every franchise that exists as I travelled over the past decade consulting. I don’t like the crust of places such as Pizza Hut or Little Caesars and it was always a toss up of ordering Dominos or PJ’s.
PJ’s to me has the best overall approach to the business and based on their growth they are doing quite well at it.
 
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What you like has very little bearing on what your customers will want…And many customers chose indys because they are not clone stores that are the same everywhere they go…I am not saying what you want to do will not work just that many folks will chose an indy because it is exactly opposite of what you are trying to do…
 
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A couple of things to keep in mind here;
  1. Use a refrigerated dough management procedure, and begin using the dough on the second day after preparation. If you establish a finished dough temperature of 75 to 80F rather the the normally recommended 80 to 85F you should be able to use the dough on the second through the fourth day after making it. This will provide you with the desired flavor, texture, and crispy eating characteristics.
  2. Bake hot. Look at setting your oven temperature at 485 to 500F. One of the new generation, air impingement ovens will probably work best for you in this application (XLT, PESI, Lincoln Fastbake, Middleby-Marshall WOW).
  3. Due to the high baking temperature, you wil need to have the oven fingers profiled specifically for your pizza and mix of products. This will be done by the manufacturer at the time the oven is installed in your store, so be prepared to bake some pizzas while the rep is at your store.
  4. Take a look at the nrew, Hearth Bake Disks from Pizza Tools <www.pizzatools.com> these baking disks are designed for use with these ovens, at these baking temperatures. They will provide a great bake without getting a nasty “pizza bone” edge on the crust. Screens are O.K., but we have never been able to get the same level of crisp from a screen as we do from the H.B. Disks.
    Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor
 
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Tom thanks very much for your advice.

I will take a look at XLT since they have competitive pricing. Is it safe to say the XLT model options are based on desired throughput and not the fact the oven would cook differently?

Also, pizza tools has a product called ‘Quick-Disk’ but I don’t see a Hearth Disk. Is that what you are refering to?
 
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Aves99:
Also, pizza tools has a product called ‘Quick-Disk’ but I don’t see a Hearth Disk. Is that what you are refering to?
Click to expand...
The hearth disks come from Lloyd Industries, which is affiliated with pizzatools.com. Their website for the hearth disks is http://www.lloydpans.com/productdisplay … Bake_Disks.
 
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The new, XLT as well as the other new, generation air impingement ovens that I referred to are totally different from earlier ovens of the same design. These ovens have modified burners, controls, baffeling/air flow characteristics to make them more efficient and cheaper to operate. The Q.D. is a different disk. The Hearth Bake Disks are a fairly new item. If youy have a problem locating it, contact John Crow at [email protected]. We were just giving away a bunch of these new disks at the NAPICS Show in Columbus, OH earlier this week.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor
 
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I forgot to add; When you go to the <www.pizzatools.com> web site, click on the pans & disks option (left side of the page). This wil take you directly to the Hearth Bake Disks.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor
 
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Papajgirl, have a question for you.

Do you ‘hand toss’ at your store? One of the things I have noticed from PJ’s is how well defined the crust line appears, almost like it’s par baked or created with a dough press.

By comparison I have watched dominos form their crust, but once baked it rises nicely but so does the balance of the pizza under the toppins, plus the crust line is not as well defined.

How is it done at PJ’s? What is the technique?

Lastly do you have or are you getting a Middleby-Marshall WOW fast bak oven at your store?
 
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Tom, thanks for your help. I have one final question for you in regards to pizza ovens

Is there a significant difference in a pizza quality if older pizza coneyor ovens are used versus faster newer models. I understand the newer ovens are faster and more economical, but is that the only reason for the change? Or do certain type of pizzas improve the faster they are cooked? Say Papa Johns style.

I always understood that the longer dough stays in the heat the less favorable the qualities become.

I see plenty of used ovens for sale (reconditioned etc…) and want to ensure I make the right choice. I don’ want to compromise quality for savings, unless it’s only a matter of the oven running a little faster.

thanks in advance
 
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Yes, we hand-toss at the store.

We edgelock the pizzas and slap them out to form the crust.

I know this sounds funny, but go to You Tube and do a search using either Papa John’s or Dough Slapping.

There are some videos that are jokes or sarcastic toward Papa John’s, but there are also real employee videos of employees doing that, so you can see exactly how it’s done.
 
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Here are a few things to keep in mind when looking at ovens.
The longer a pizza bakes (within reason) the more flavor it develops. Ever wonder why those artisan bread shops bake their breads so long? Before settling on an oven, you must first look at your “product concept” what kind of pizza are you making? What is your product concept? By this I mean, is it a somewhat sparse topped New York style, or is it a fully loaded pizza that is piled high with veggies and meats? Then, what is your store Concept? Are you a slce operation, do you need to turn pizzas fast, are you a dine-in where people can watch you make their pizza? You get the picture. If you are going to have a lot of veggies on the pizza, an air impingement oven might be your best choice because it manages the moisture released from all of those cooking vegetables much better than other oven types. If you have a pizza loaded with different meats, the air impingement oven will do a better job of cooking all of the meat toppings than other oven types. If you have a more traditional topped pizza, or a New York style, just about any good pizza oven will work for you, but now you wil lneed to look at the capacity (pizzas per hour). Deck ovens are great, they offer a certain showmanship because your customers can watch you peel the pizzas in and out of the oven, but they are slower than air impingement ovens when you’re really cranking. If you’re into the artisan pizzas or really into hand crafting of your pizzas, a stone hearth oven might be in your future. With regard to the older design air impingement V/S the newer designs, the newer, high efficiency ovens, both designs will do an excellent job of managing water from the vegetable toppings, and when combined with the new, Hearth Bake Disks, both will give an excellent hearth baked characteristic to your pizzas. The new ovens, are a bit more flexible in that they can bake a wider assortment of pizzas at the same setting (like some thick and thin crust pizzas side by side), and they do it more economically (something you should look into whit hte cost of energy today), some oven manufacturers are reporting a cost saving of several hundred dollars in operational costs per month, which can add up pretty fast.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor
 
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Aves99
Re: Pizza Oven - Trying to simulate Papa Johns

Aves 99-Is there a significant difference in a pizza quality if older pizza conveyor ovens are used versus faster newer models. I understand the newer ovens are faster and more economical, but is that the only reason for the change? Or do certain type of pizzas improve the faster they are cooked? Say Papa Johns style.

I always understood that the longer dough stays in the heat the less favorable the qualities become.

GM-Toms answer is as usual the correct one. The slower baked pizzas taste better than the fast baked version or so most all of our clients state.

Aves99-I see plenty of used ovens for sale (reconditioned etc…) and want to ensure I make the right choice. I don’ want to compromise quality for savings, unless it’s only a matter of the oven running a little faster.

GM-There are vast differences between the latest new ovens and the older models. Much lower operating cost and improved operation being most prominent. The major chains are dumping the older model ovens not because they do not work any more.

Actually some properly rebuilt ovens can cost more to buy than new. Middleby offers a factory authorized rebuilt oven PS 360 at more than the cost for a new XLT oven of the same size.

I do not believe a used oven can be properly rebuilt for a lot less than the selling price of the same size new. If you get one for considerably less than new you will probably shortly spend the difference in operating cost and maintenance.

George Mills
 
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Aves99
Sorry about missing you question about the various XLT models.
All models produce the same quality pizza the difference is that the larger ovens produce more pies.
We started with only two sizes of XLT and could only double deck them. We now have 8 models and can triple deck them.

George Mills
 
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Tom had mentioned earlier about the models available. My research showed:
Lincoln which offers the fast bake, but doesn’t offer the newest in gas technology.
Middleby Marshall which utilizes the newest in gas technology but you are paying for the R&D.
PESI Pro Series that utilizes the newest in gas technology and doesn’t require proprietary parts
BOFI which utilizes the newest in technology but has Grainger and propietary parts.
I know I did some comparison pricing and saw that the Pro Series is priced below the cometition and seem to cook faster.
Tom has cooked on these ovens, what is his thought. With proper finger placement, a PJ style cook can be achieved with finger placement, proper heat and time settings.
 
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George, is it not true that when the ovens are rebuilt they are brought up to the newest specifications. Especially since the originally parts were discontinued or not up to current codes. This meaning that if the oven was designed with on/off solenoid valves they could be modified to modulating valves. Also if the proper company is doing the rebuilding any metal “fatigued” parts are replaced with new and usually thicker metal for the end-user? A number of companies offer rebuilt/refurbished ovens at fractions of the new(1/2 - 3/4). Rumor has it that BOFI is thinking of releasing refurbished ovens from what they have taken in on trade-ins from sales of their new ovens?
 
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