Wife is demanding deck ovens, any suggestions

[system]

Re: Wife is demanding deck ovens? Q-Matic question

pie2:

Just my 2 cents on ovens based on experience - please don’t take it personal.

No matter what any oven salesman or pizza operator will tell you, you absolutely cannot get the same crust from an impingement oven that you get with a deck oven. The crispy/crunchy deck oven texture is just not possible with impingement. Now that doesn’t mean these ovens are not good ovens or that you can’t make a good pizza with them, it’s just that they produce a different kind of pizza: more chewy than crunchy.

Here’s a summary of what I’ve learned about ovens:

Impingement: Bakes the most consistent, easiest to operate, good to very good crust, notch below great because you cannot get the deck crunch. Great for high volume shops.

Q-matic: Not quite as consistent as impingement but not bad. Takes a lot of experience with these to get the adjustments just right for your dough. Need to bake in anondized pans and we had to try several types to find the right ones for our dough. Dough needs to be on the dry side otherwise you will end up with soggy pizza. Does not compensate very well for dough that is a little off. Very quiet, energy efficient and low maintenance. All in all it is a great compromise between a deck and conveyor. Overall if you got the right pans, your dough is on and the oven is properly tuned it makes a great pizza that rivals a deck and even brick oven but with better consistency. I am a believer in these ovens since they are good for high volume and plan to stay with them.

Picard deck-conveyor. These aren’t very common from what I’ve heard. Made in Canada and my brother’s shop just bought one. Absolutely cooks like a deck because it is a deck with the convenience and consistency of a conveyor. I recommend baking right on the stone with parchment paper underneath. It may be the best oven you can buy but it is pricey: 30-35K I think is what he paid.

Standard deck: Never owned one but worked with one long ago. Needs to be operated by an experience pizza maker otherwise will have consistency problems. Bakes the classic pie if done right.

I use a Q-Matic(36W) also and am satisfied with my first 4 months of using it.
I use there recommended 14 gauge balck anodized preforated(13%, ie 81 holes per 14" disk)…
my dough is on the slack side, 59% water with 12% protein flour.

I run around 450 degrees F for around 8 minutes, using bottom heat only.
I say “around” because I am tweaking it “around” those settings.
HSCS is 4, interval around 16 seconds…there is a lot of settings on the oven…
I like the quietness and the deck-like bake also,

Otis

 

[pie2]

George Mills:

In hundreds of demonstrations, starting back when everyone had deck ovens we never failed to duplicate the bake of the pizza to the complete satisfaction of the operator.George Mills

While I don’t disagree that you can satisify your impinger oven customers with a quality bake, I stand by my statement that it is just not possible to get the same bake with an impingement as you can with a deck. Hot blowing air or convection bakes are unquestionably different than a stone bake, just as the dry heat of a wood fired bake oven cannot be duplicated with a deck, no matter how you spin it.

I feel very strongly about this point because our Lincoln sales rep sold us the same line a few years ago, and we ended up replacing our ovens 6 months after we opened because we couldn’t get the bake we wanted, costing us an extra $10K that we would rather not have spent.

 

[Patriot_sPizza]

beating a dead horse…

CTX is a non-impingement, conveyor-across-a-deck oven that can replicate anything coming out of a Bakers Pride…

Everyone has a favorite oven, based on the task @ hand & desired profile…

All ovens have points of contention…

Conveyors produce consistent product while a deck oven requires a talented oven man…

You need to design a system that gives your customers the pie they want…

 

[George_Mills]

[
While I don’t disagree that you can satisify your impinger oven customers with a quality bake, I stand by my statement that it is just not possible to get the same bake with an impingement as you can with a deck

quote=“pie2”]
George Mills:

In hundreds of demonstrations, starting back when everyone had deck ovens we never failed to duplicate the bake of the pizza to the complete satisfaction of the operator.George Mills

While I don’t disagree that you can satisify ( satisfy) your impinger ( air impingement ) oven customers with a quality bake,

Response: Those were die hard deck oven users, not impingement users, up until we did a demo, or they experienced the results others were getting.

I feel very strongly about this point because our Lincoln sales rep sold us the same line a few years ago,

Response: We have never sold a line. We proved and continue to prove that we can do it. The old, old timer deck users who converted were not idiots. They wanted proof and we gave it to them. There is no one, to my knowledge, of the hundreds of our converted deck users refuting my position. I have exhibited at pizza shows nation wide and no one has ever come up to me and said I did not give then the results they wanted.

Our motto was and still is “try it, if you are not convinced don’t buy it.” Every demo resulted in a sale.

and we ended up replacing our ovens 6 months after we opened because we couldn’t get the bake we wanted, costing us an extra $10K that we would rather not have spent.
[/quote]

Lincoln does not make the statement that we do that, if within 90 days, we cannot produce the pizza quality you expect, we will take the ovens back and refund the purchase price. That assurance is for those who do and those who cannot or will not, take the time to travel to where they can test ovens for as long as they like. No one has ever returned our ovens.

I will bet $1,000.00 or whatever, that if you bake 100-14 inch, for example, of your pizzas on your deck oven in, say, an hour, or less if you can, and I bake the same number of your same pizzas in whatever time you do with my oven and we have, say, 20 consumers at random judge those pizzas. I will wager the pizzas I produce will be judged superior to those you produce.

The true test is in customer acceptance over a great many pizzas produced not what you or I think. There are hundreds of thousands more conveyor produced pizzas sold. Of course some are not of the greatest quality but that has more to due with the ingredients and prep procedures then ovens. Also, all the conveyor ovens out there are not quality air impingement ovens.

My point is if deck oven pizzas are so superior why do they not dominate the industry? I state again no one I ever demonstrated ovens for were willing to comprise quality for the other advantages of conveyor air impingement ovens.

The buying public flocks to shops using quality air impingement ovens, why?

 

[pie2]

I don’t mean to argue with you George. My point isn’t that a deck is “better” than an impingement. What’s best is decided by the pizza operator and ultimately the customer. Impingement conveyors have indeed taken over the industry, as the big 3 chains use them exclusively along with most medium sized local chains. Shop owners love them because of the consistency and the way they greatly simplify operations. As far as my customers are concerned, I’ve actually had several people tell me that they liked our pizza better when we had our Lincoln Impinger. My opinion is that our pizza is much better with the Q-matics, and since I am the owner my opinion wins.

 

[Ramsey]

I use 2-Lincolns, we do about 1000-1100 pies per week and also fill it with slices, grinders, dinners etc. Gets REAL crowded but we work it out. Have had these ovens for 8 years after 2 years with 2-Blodgetts. Nothing easier than conveyors and bake is “not bad”. Don’t agree with comment that pies from deck are soft in 5 minutes once you put in box. I demoed Rotoflex and pies sat in boxes in bag for 20 minutes, got back to store and ate CRUNCHY pizza. I was sold. It will be Alot more work with Rotoflex and sometimes I think I’m crazy but I want to sell lots of pizza at a higher price and smaller menu and better bake should accomplish that. I also demoed Q-matics( almost bought) and I liked quiet operation and bake resembled deck bake but was soft, even with a 6-7 minute bake at 475-500. It’s just not the same bake.Good Luck, remember it’s way more work and you need better help with decks or rotoflex. I have drivers cut pies alot with conveyors and it’s hard for them to mess it up. I just tell them, Cut it in 8 right?

 

[system]

Ramsey:

I use 2-Lincolns, we do about 1000-1100 pies per week and also fill it with slices, grinders, dinners etc. Gets REAL crowded but we work it out. Have had these ovens for 8 years after 2 years with 2-Blodgetts. Nothing easier than conveyors and bake is “not bad”. Don’t agree with comment that pies from deck are soft in 5 minutes once you put in box. I demoed Rotoflex and pies sat in boxes in bag for 20 minutes, got back to store and ate CRUNCHY pizza. I was sold. It will be Alot more work with Rotoflex and sometimes I think I’m crazy but I want to sell lots of pizza at a higher price and smaller menu and better bake should accomplish that. I also demoed Q-matics( almost bought) and I liked quiet operation and bake resembled deck bake but was soft, even with a 6-7 minute bake at 475-500. It’s just not the same bake.Good Luck, remember it’s way more work and you need better help with decks or rotoflex. I have drivers cut pies alot with conveyors and it’s hard for them to mess it up. I just tell them, Cut it in 8 right?

I use a Q-Matic also. I am in a trailer so the quiet operation is appreciated and the more “deck-like” bake is appreciated even more.

I do think I could get closer to s deck-like bake with an impingment conveyor with the right disk and profile.

Like you, I think the Roto-Flex really rocks in bake and efficiency, the only draw back for me is size and weight, it just will not fit in my trailer.
Put me in a building, I probably would go straight to Roto-Flex with out flinching, maybe looking for a used Roto-Flex along the way.

Let us know how your new Roto-Flex goes.

Otis

 

[NicksPizza]

George Mills:

The true test is in customer acceptance over a great many pizzas produced not what you or I think. There are hundreds of thousands more conveyor produced pizzas sold. Of course some are not of the greatest quality but that has more to due with the ingredients and prep procedures then ovens. Also, all the conveyor ovens out there are not quality air impingement ovens.

My point is if deck oven pizzas are so superior why do they not dominate the industry? I state again no one I ever demonstrated ovens for were willing to comprise quality for the other advantages of conveyor air impingement ovens.

The buying public flocks to shops using quality air impingement ovens, why?

I am not ina position to argue pie quality and the difference between the two or more types of ovens.

I would suggest that one of the biggest selling points for these conveyor ovens in huge production shops is the volume of pizza you can cook per man-hour. It is less labor intensive to use a conveyor, requires less specialized skill, and therefore costs less per unit.

I am curious what is driving more than one conveyor seller to proffer that their m achines cook pizzas “just as good as a deck oven”, or something similar? Could it be that there is still contention out there in the marketplace about the desireability of the deck pizza characterisitcs? I don’t sell ovens, so I am not saying for sure that I know. I do know I have read lots and lots of pizza people here saying that their ovens really do as good a job as a deck . . . almost like that is the benchmark or something. [/deadhorsebeating]

 

[Ramsey]

Otis, i bought it used from guy near Buffalo, left at 3AM with my nephew, got there at 8AM, was 10 miles from home when borrowed truck’s trans went at about 6PM. paid 16K and it’s about 5 -7 yrs old. New is about 31K, ouch. I’ll definitely let you know how it goes, I’m curious myself.

 

[system]

Ramsey:

Otis, i bought it used from guy near Buffalo, left at 3AM with my nephew, got there at 8AM, was 10 miles from home when borrowed truck’s trans went at about 6PM. paid 16K and it’s about 5 -7 yrs old. New is about 31K, ouch. I’ll definitely let you know how it goes, I’m curious myself.

good luck in hooking it up and getting it running…
let us know how it goes
I wish I was near there so I could try your Roto-Flex baked pizza,

Otis

 

[system]

its poll time
decks vs conveyors

 

[PizzaManMike]

George Mills:

Just a comment RE deck ovens. None of the large chains use them. They discarded them years ago.

George Mills

mama sbarros uses them as does the regular sabarros… im going to go with a wood burning oven to be honest… thats tru pizza… decks imo blow away conveyors… but im a NY’er so im partial sorry guys

 

[George_Mills]

PizzaManMike:

George Mills:

Just a comment RE deck ovens. None of the large chains use them. They discarded them years ago.

George Mills

mama sbarros uses them as does the regular sabarros… im going to go with a wood burning oven to be honest… thats tru pizza… decks imo blow away conveyors… but im a NY’er so im partial sorry guys

I guess that, if included, Sabarro’s could be the exception that proves the rule. I would note that the large chains I refer to that rank over Sabarro’s have a total of over 17,000 shops. the smalles group having 2,700. Subarros have,I think, 919.
George mills

 

[MM1]

OK, I got sucked in.
Everyone understands that there are differences in the abilities of decks in comparison to conveyors. But the argument that big chains have switched isn’t going to convince this audience of much - chains switch to lower quality on a regular basis if it is cost effective.
Do you microwave your hamburgers at home? Most of the big chains do.
Do you prefer “cheese product” from a pump for your nachos? Big chains do.

 

[Pazzo_di_Pizza]

MM:

OK, I got sucked in.
Everyone understands that there are differences in the abilities of decks in comparison to conveyors. But the argument that big chains have switched isn’t going to convince this audience of much - chains switch to lower quality on a regular basis if it is cost effective.
Do you microwave your hamburgers at home? Most of the big chains do.
Do you prefer “cheese product” from a pump for your nachos? Big chains do.

Good point MM. I kind of take the “big chains use them” with a grain of salt. IMO the big chains make changes based on the bottom line for company and investors. Being an indy I feel a little different, as I want a better product even thought it may take a little longer and cost a little more. Each pie is like a piece of art work, no two are the same and each is made with love!

In an effort to promote our pizzeria as “Earth friendly” I am taking steps to reduce waste (metal forks, knives etc, no paper cups, plastic lids, real plates and so on). After eating at Wendy’s over the weekend it really hit home looking at all the left over items on my tray and how much will go to a landfill.

With consumers being more aware of this fact and wanting to do something without having to make a major lifestyle changes it makes sense.

Anyway back to ovens, I can see I opened a can of worms on this one as each oven type has a place in the world of pizza, pros and cons on each side. Until someone make the “end all” oven we have to decide what compromises we can live with when making our perfect pizza.

As for us, I want to be different from the other places and this means using deck style ovens. Everyone else (those doing any volume worth knocking off the top spots) are using conveyors. Makes it easy for marketing. “We use deck ovens, they don’t. Come taste what you have been missing!”

 

[George_Mills]

What is the object of business?

The group I speak of do close to 15 billion in sales.

One of them I switched to quality air impingement ovens several years ago they went from a dinky operation to close to two billion in sales today.
They never would have grown to that magnitude using deck ovens.

My intentions are to maximize the pizza operator profits, not to massage his ego that he has the greatest pizza in the world.
George mills

 

[George_Mills]

George Mills:

What is the object of business?

The group I speak of do close to 15 billion in sales.

One of them I switched to quality air impingement ovens several years ago they went from a dinky operation to close to two billion in sales today.
They never would have grown to that magnitude using deck ovens.

My intentions are to maximize the pizza operator profits, not to massage his ego that he has the greatest pizza in the world.
George mills

Please note:
Its not only big operators, I have clients with 5,10,15 ,20, and more shops doing great and growing, adding shops every year. There growth is only held back by the difficulty of finding reliable workers. The use of quality air impingement ovens reduces that problem dramatically and enables them to grow.

Note also if the buying public did not love their product, they would not grow.

 

[NicksPizza]

George Mills:

George Mills:

Please note:
Its not only big operators, I have clients with 5,10,15 ,20, and more shops doing great and growing, adding shops every year. There growth is only held back by the difficulty of finding reliable workers. The use of quality air impingement ovens reduces that problem dramatically and enables them to grow.

Note also if the buying public did not love their product, they would not grow.

To me, a 10 store operation is pretty big. You mention above what we have been talking about in this thread. Huge operations are using conveyors of all sorts because they are doing volume that a deck does not manage as well without skilled labor. By dumping decks, less skilled labor (less expensive labor) can pump outthe olume needed.

Saying the public loves their product is possibly true. That does not mean that the same product is more or less loveable coming from decks or conveyors. We can say with certainty that the pizzas from the “big busniess” shops using conveyors don’t suck . . . concluding anything else is actually a logical flaw.

Just because a lot of people do something doesn’t mean it is correct or somehow better because more people do it (unless you are a retailer, and you’re looking to convince people of it, like we do). This is potentially close to a logical falacy. The fallacy is called ad populum or “bandwagon”.

The main problem with the fallacy is the fact that lots of people agreeing on something does not automatically mean that what they agree on is true; admitedly, the fact that many people agree, can be relevant evidence for the truth in some instances. The trick is to understand the nature of the relevance of the premisses to the conclusion.

The premisses may be true for some and not others. For example (as has been mentioned before), those operations who use the visibility of hand preparation and deck cooking process as ambiance or entertainment or similar reasons in their operations would find it less desireable to use conveyor ovens. One example, and it doesn’t mean all decks are better for all places, just that some decks are better for some places. It’s a question of generalizability of conclusions.

 

[system]

Surely the whole arguement of ‘which oven to use’ is answered by the taste of the pizza produced (I think this was suggested right at the begininng).

Now call me a big ole cynic BUT we can sit here and talk about which is the best oven and the original poster can sit and tell us he wants to be ‘different’ and bake the ‘best pizza’ etc etc.

Simple answer - take your dough and do a kitchen test - you can spend $1000’s on an oven and with the wrong receipe make a crappy pizza (there are lots and lots of operators doing this every day of the year - having a deck oven guarantees you nothing - let me say that again - having a deck oven guarantees you NOTHING.

So quit the long long debate - and go sort out testing the ovens this is the only way you will truely decide which is best for you.

 

[system]

Anonymous:

Surely the whole arguement of ‘which oven to use’ is answered by the taste of the pizza produced (I think this was suggested right at the begininng).

Now call me a big ole cynic BUT we can sit here and talk about which is the best oven and the original poster can sit and tell us he wants to be ‘different’ and bake the ‘best pizza’ etc etc.

Simple answer - take your dough and do a kitchen test - you can spend $1000’s on an oven and with the wrong receipe make a crappy pizza (there are lots and lots of operators doing this every day of the year - having a deck oven guarantees you nothing - let me say that again - having a deck oven guarantees you NOTHING.

So quit the long long debate - and go sort out testing the ovens this is the only way you will truely decide which is best for you.

and go with an open mind no one ever learnt anything they already knew!