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Tips are part of the profits of a delivery drivers profession. Those profits help pay for the capital expenditure of buying a car that is used to generate those profits. If someone wants me to share the profits of MY capital investment, they must make an equal contribution to me in the financial risks I take.
If an owner makes me a business partner with insiders by forcing me to share my profits (tips), I will insist they help pay for my investment.
Pay me a fair wage, or make me a partner. If you want my tips, deliver the pizza yourself.
If an owner makes me a business partner with insiders by forcing me to share my profits (tips), I will insist they help pay for my investment.
Pay me a fair wage, or make me a partner. If you want my tips, deliver the pizza yourself.
gregster:
So does this mean the owners get some of your tips b/c its their business (and financial/life risk) that are making you the tips? Without their business, you wouldn’t have a job. So therefore by your theory you need to share your tips with the owners because you need to help pay for the capital expenditure of buying a business that is used to generate your profits.
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The owner is already deriving a benefit from tips in that they can pay lower wages for a job than what the market would normally demand, in effect, they are being subsidized by the customer. Besides which, the law is quite clear that tips are the sole property of the server/driver to whom they are given, since customarily it was solely on the merits of service that they were given and not as some sort of additional revenue for the restaurant.
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Kind of like the store owner who chisels away at his employees wage in every way that he can simply to line his own pocket? As you’ve pointed out, many things can cut both ways and a greedy shop owner both effects many more people than a greedy driver, and spreads his attitude far wider through his conduct. I’m not here to pick a fight, but given your demonstrated contempt for delivery drivers that started long before any TTPG people showed up here, I’d recommend against offering delivery at your future shop, I think it would cause you more anxiety than it’s worth.
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He’s sort of touchy about being quoted, and frankly I don’t terribly feel like rummaging through 1000 posts looking for the ones that I’m thinking of from my lurking days. Just recently I’ve seen him call us primadonnas, claim that we’re all more trouble than we’re worth, claim that most drivers are slackers/etc. This is in addition to the post that I still might try to dig up where he claims that he’s going to force his employers to do uncompensated charity work off the clock (illegal) or another where he claims that he’s doesn’t have to provide mandated break periods. Let’s not forget the numerous unprovoked attacks on TTPG members and his attempts to get Gregster thrown off the board. I’d call that demonstrated contempt, but if you still don’t believe me, you go through his post history, it’s all there.
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I just substantiated it, you’re just too lazy to follow up on what I gave you. As to trolling, I really don’t think you and many others here who toss that word around actually know what it means. I’m not hit and run posting, I’m not just provoking people for the fun of it, I am here with an agenda, but so is everyone else here. A real troll could run wild with the wealth of personally identifying information laying around this site and cause some real havoc, I’m not even bothering to mock anyone from the safety of TTPG. If an articulate opponent that disagrees with you is too much for you to handle, maybe this whole internet thing isn’t for you.
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Wow, some how here you substantiated your claim of Charles demonstrated contempt towards delivery drivers?
All I read in that is your opinions of his feelings. And you’re calling me lazy? You made the claims, back them up!!!
You got me there Dox, you are just too articulate for me. I now bow down to the master of words!
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Notice that Charles himself has yet to reply, and if he does I’ve not attributed anything to him that he has not said. He may dispute my conclusions, but what he’s posted is a matter of record. That being said, I’m not here to commit a character assassination or get into a long drawn out argument about another board member with a third party, believe me or don’t, I don’t have a whole lot invested either way. You can pretend you haven’t seen his recent posts that I mentioned even though you have posts in the same threads, I suspect that even if I managed to find a quote where he flat out says “I’m contemptuous of drivers and people who work for me” that you’d still find some reason to bicker.
Again notice that I’m not the one hollering “troll!” when someone disagrees with me, nor am I deliberately provoking people or engaging in any of the usual trollish behaviors. The only reason that term keeps coming up is that some people find that they disagree with me but can’t out argue me, so the resort to a personal attack to undermine my credibility. Nothing kills a lie like the truth, so I’m more than prepared for worse accusations than trolling.
Again notice that I’m not the one hollering “troll!” when someone disagrees with me, nor am I deliberately provoking people or engaging in any of the usual trollish behaviors. The only reason that term keeps coming up is that some people find that they disagree with me but can’t out argue me, so the resort to a personal attack to undermine my credibility. Nothing kills a lie like the truth, so I’m more than prepared for worse accusations than trolling.
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I should not have replied to you in the first place. You have been relegated to this forum and I mistakenly fed your appetite for anonymous internet sparring. I have not responded since as I realized my mistake.
You are correct only in that my posts are on the record. You have distorted them and others are free to look them up. I am sure I have said things that were more emotional than rational at times, and I regret that I allowed myself to get upset. But on the whole, my posts will bear much more scrutiny than yours.
Continue with your drivel. I will not be responding to you here. I look forward to the day when PMQ comes to its senses, looks at the sum contribution of yahoos like you, and deletes this Delivery Driver Discussion forum and its antagonistic participants. You add nothing to the TT and take much away from its value.
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Quite a few things to address here, I’ll take them one at a time.
Charles:
Charles:
Charles:
I could go on like this for some time about the value of having people like me around a forum like this, but I think everyone gets the point. The question now is how is it that you claim that I’m “taking much away” from it’s value? I’m not spamming the forum with multiple threads, I’m not trolling anyone with arbitrary contrary posts, I’m not preventing anything from happening here, I’m merely providing an alternate view on things. That you believe that having an alternative viewpoint represented here devalues the forum says much more about you than it does me, and not in a good way.
Anonymous? This isn’t 4chan, I use a persistent user name using my real photo as an avatar, and give my real location and real former shops, on the internet that’s practically like wearing my driver’s license on my sleeve. I even use the same use name from forum to forum, I’ve made no attempts to hide who I am and what I’m about. I have a point of view and am vocal about it, if you want to see that as an appetite for sparring that’s on you.
I’ve got under 100 here posts and I’m sure you’ve seen them all, care to quote one that won’t “bear scrutiny”? I’m not the one advertising my contempt for both the law and my employees on the net, and if you regret these “emotional” posts so much why didn’t you clarify them after you calmed down? If it was only one or two, I could chalk it up to ITG syndrome, but the sheer number of your posts disparaging employees leads me to believe that you really view anyone who works for you as your personal serf, and I’m going to challenge that sort of attitude when I see it.
And you add so much value with your repeated personal attacks and calls to ban people who disagree with you? I can actually support my positions with rigorous argumentation and documentation when available, what I often see posted under your byline is emotional screeds and temper tantrums, this latest little tiff included. I view your disapproval as the best sort of endorsement for what I’m doing here, this place needed some fresh air and a new viewpoint to spark original thinking and your protests only confirm it. Including the input of experienced employees on this site can be very valuable to both the new shop owner and the experienced manager alike, things go on at the employee level that can have a huge impact on the business that management never will see. There is also a strong “well that’s how we’ve always done it” sort of mentality going on here when new ideas emerge, and a little examination of why things are done a certain way is healthy.
I could go on like this for some time about the value of having people like me around a forum like this, but I think everyone gets the point. The question now is how is it that you claim that I’m “taking much away” from it’s value? I’m not spamming the forum with multiple threads, I’m not trolling anyone with arbitrary contrary posts, I’m not preventing anything from happening here, I’m merely providing an alternate view on things. That you believe that having an alternative viewpoint represented here devalues the forum says much more about you than it does me, and not in a good way.
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I’d have to agree with Charles… ever since the drivers showed up, its been annoying as crap. Whether you think you or gregster belong here or not is entirely your opinion, but don’t expect everyone to feel that way. This place is for everything pizza related and its being saturated with a bunch of gibber jabber that doesn’t belong here. You guys aren’t the delivery police, nor is anything you guys saying ultimately going to change ANYTHING. Is pretty apparent you guys are trolling. Yeah you guys chime in once in a while in normal topics, but that still doesn’t mean that you’re not trolling. You’re here to start fights with owners about paying their drivers when none of you guys actually work for us. Go complain to the people you work for. Nothing the drivers bring to this forum is of any value what so ever.
Now if you’re going to pick this apart this that just furthers the fact that you’re here for one reason.
Now if you’re going to pick this apart this that just furthers the fact that you’re here for one reason.
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Gee, you must be psychic since I am in fact going to tear your post apart… Because it’s poorly constructed and doesn’t make sense. I might ask what it is that you are doing in the delivery driver section if this sort of thing bothers you so much, or are you “only here for one reason” as well…
What, the six threads that got moved to the delivery ghetto were too much of an obstacle for you to view the rest of the site? I’ve said it before, I’ll say it again, methinks thou doth protest too much.
I really ought to just end my “picking apart” right here, since you’ve so thoroughly hung yourself without any aide from me and I didn’t even have to hand you the rope to do it… But since I’m the perfectionist type; why is it that “everything pizza related” doesn’t include discussing pizza’s signature service, delivery, and business matters pertaining to it? Could it be that you don’t have an effective counter argument for the points that Gregster and I have made and you just want the subject to go away? Surely it couldn’t be something so asinine as that…
Oh, we’ve changed things already, look at how many people here are now regular lurkers at TTPG. More importantly, we’ve gotten our message to many people who are just starting out in the business who will now want to clarify the wage situation with their attorneys before adopting some sub minimum scheme. No one thinks we’re going to move mountains by posting a few threads on the internet, but by raising awareness we can further our cause incrementally, and all it costs is time.
Apparent to you, Charles and Paul, which as I already told to Chuck is as good as a ringing endorsement to me. I’ve gotten enough positive responses to my threads to know that I’m contributing value here, if you want to keep deluding yourself and posting things that fly in the face of reality it’s your credibility that’s being damaged, not mine.
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Why even respond to them?..As evident from “keepyourtips.com” (8 members???) they aren’t the voice of pizzadrivers in general period…On the contray all they do is shine a bad light on drivers in general…They perpetuate the image that drivers are nothing more than selfish, self servings people that take into consideration nothing else but their own bottomline…I’ve been telling them for over a year now they’re fighting a losing battle & so far I’ve been right again…I would love to see them make strides for bettering this job however the way they keep going about it, I haven’t seen nothing but agrumentative, one sided, agruments…Not to mention just selective cut & pasting of the same paragraphs over & over again…When you work like this? And take absolutely nothing else into consideration other than repeating your same argument on a few internet message boards?..You’re bound for failure man…
Looks to me more like a group of insecure drivers from their repetitive smack & jargon not the intended pioneers they’re striving to be…
You’re talking to people that can see nothing else other than what they post & believe…We’re talking beyond stubborn man…Why even waste your time in responding to them?..
When they actually become pioneers in the pizzaDriving business, we’ll surely see them in the news…In the meantime just let them ramble on…
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^^^^Didnt realize you posted that right before I posted mine…
But in response to dox’s last post:
Yeah I’m in the drivers section for one reason only. To speak MY piece.
Well how do you like this… I been here for 4 months straight every day open to close (PLUS 8 month for ALL startup aspects witout any source of generating income) and I haven’t made 1 thin dime. I haven’t brought home any type of pay this whole time. And you guys think you have it so bad? You guys only see it one sided, you dont see all the time and stress, and problems, and money that goes out the door, and the loss of sleep every single night, and dealing with staff/customers, and everything that goes into owning and operating a restaurant. Nobody feels sorry for you.
The last pizza place I worked at drivers averaged around 20 bucks an hour… If you think they’re underpaid, you’re shot.
But in response to dox’s last post:
Yeah I’m in the drivers section for one reason only. To speak MY piece.
Well how do you like this… I been here for 4 months straight every day open to close (PLUS 8 month for ALL startup aspects witout any source of generating income) and I haven’t made 1 thin dime. I haven’t brought home any type of pay this whole time. And you guys think you have it so bad? You guys only see it one sided, you dont see all the time and stress, and problems, and money that goes out the door, and the loss of sleep every single night, and dealing with staff/customers, and everything that goes into owning and operating a restaurant. Nobody feels sorry for you.
The last pizza place I worked at drivers averaged around 20 bucks an hour… If you think they’re underpaid, you’re shot.
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And yet you think we should be tossed off the board and not allowed to speak OUR piece, nice little double standard you got there.
Totally irrelevant, being a struggling owner doesn’t exempt anyone from paying their workers fairly. Opening a shop is a known risk, working for a paycheck is not supposed to be. If you didn’t know the drill when you decided to open a shop, it’s not the fault of the employees that it’s tough. Besides, it’s not a valid comparison because you are building equity by growing an income stream, if you are successful enough you can eventually pay someone else to run the store for you and just sit back and collect money, or open more stores. A driver only earns when they work, there is no retirement plan or sick days, nothing to fall back on or sell of if it doesn’t work out, the least than they should get is a fair paycheck that reflects their personal contribution to the business.
This isn’t a pissing contest over who has it worse, that has nothing to do with fair pay. To use your own “logic”, if owning a shop is so bad than why do it? If it is so terrible why don’t you just cut and run, sell everything and quit? Isn’t that helpful, I just solved all of your problems! I don’t want anyone to feel sorry for me, I just want to be payed fairly and compensated for my full contribution to the business.
We’ve been over this before, gross earnings can be misleading because they don’t reflect the driver’s costs, and what part of that is actually coming from the employer? If someone is being payed below minimum wage and their reimbursement does not cover their costs, I don’t care how much they make in tips they are still being underpayed. Just because people in this country customarily tip for service does not let the employer off of the hook to pay their people, you cannot expect people to accept the honor system for subsistence.
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