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Driver Compensation

Sorry to add to the drama Daddio…but I am still rolling on the floor after reading about the promotion that takes place going from kitchen to driver positions. WTF! This is past hilarious. Does the chef make less than the server in highend restaurants? Wait…should the server first be a GM before he gets promoted to drop the plate on the table and refill my soda? If you think your are just so much more advanced in the world then why are you not still delivering pizza? Did you move on to a higher paying job with more responsibilities? Say… tollbooth operator? Wait… I honestly think that the dishwasher should be the highest paid restaurant employee there. I hate dirty plates and glassware! :shock:
 
The thread that keeps on giving.

Granted my operation is run differently than most delco operations, at least that is what I hear from people I hire, but drivers are entry level, cooks are entry level. Once a driver or cook learns their repective job, we let them interface with the customers on the phone and or in person. ie: Being allowed to take orders is a promotion, and in most cases results in a little more per hour. I hate to hear an employee say “I don’t know” to a customer so they don’t talk to customers until they know the ins and outs of what we do.

Most of my drivers drive older vehiclesprobably valued in the 1000-4000 dollar range. I use a 1994 jimmy I paid 3K for about 5 years ago, I also frequenly use my 1971 VW that I have about 2K invested in so far I typically personally run about 25-50 deliveries in the average week, about half of what most of my drivers do and I average less than $500/year in repair although I do my own work so I don’t pay for labor. The $250 figure seems a bit high but I think the poster put it high on purpose so the people claiming drivers are underpaid could not dispute it. I do not object to my drivers using older vehicles as long as they are safe, clean and reliable.

I do not believe those that think taking home between ten and twenty dollars an hour for delivering food and folding boxes and helping to clean is underpaid can ever be convinced that it is fair compensation. I, for one, will never be convinced that what I pay my drivers is unfair. Like they say about trying to teach a pig to sing, it just frustrates you and it annoys the pig.

Rick
 
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qcfmike:
Sorry to add to the drama Daddio…but I am still rolling on the floor after reading about the promotion that takes place going from kitchen to driver positions. WTF! This is past hilarious. Does the chef make less than the server in highend restaurants? Wait…should the server first be a GM before he gets promoted to drop the plate on the table and refill my soda? If you think your are just so much more advanced in the world then why are you not still delivering pizza? Did you move on to a higher paying job with more responsibilities? Say… tollbooth operator? Wait… I honestly think that the dishwasher should be the highest paid restaurant employee there. I hate dirty plates and glassware! :shock:
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:idea:

This may be “hilarious” but you are missing some points:
  1. We really shouldn’t compare pizza shops to restaurants with chefs. When one of your cooks receives a Michelin Star, then we can discuss the matter further.
  2. A driver really (no, really) can be promoted out of the kitchen. A cook/manager/inside person is stuck at whatever the pay rate is. A driver, however, can surely beat that rate while delivering.
  3. If you are looking at pay rates that the store is responsible for, then yes, drivers are paid less than insiders. But since everyone wants to point out that drivers can make $20/hr (with tips given by customers), tell me this: are you paying that rate to insiders? Are they making $20/hr.? I don’t know where you have hidden your business sense, but generally, a higher overall pay rate = promotion. 😃
 
Rick G:
I do not believe those that think taking home between ten and twenty dollars an hour for delivering food and folding boxes and helping to clean is underpaid can ever be convinced that it is fair compensation. I, for one, will never be convinced that what I pay my drivers is unfair. Like they say about trying to teach a pig to sing, it just frustrates you and it annoys the pig.

Rick
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Wow you pay your drivers between 10 and 20 dollars an hour with minimal inside work? That is way more than fair, sign me up!

Do you have any idea how much additional they make in tips? :?:

Oink oink :lol:
 
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Daddio:
Along with you ridiculous rants you make ridiculous assumptions. Since you are not even in the industry I neither care whether you post or what your posts contain. To me you are irrelevant. Just don’t make accusations that you can’t substantiate.
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As long as my posts with intelligent, rational thought are not randomly deleted because you “don’t like me” then all is fine.

I may not work in the industry at this point in any form, but as someone who has functioned in various capacities in the pizza business, I take the mantra “once a driver, always a driver” seriously. I suppose some people forget that.

I keep my posting about delivery issues to the delivery forum as requested, so if I am so irrelevant to you, then let me be and make my points.

Have a nice day. 8)
 
That looks more like a fat donkey. It would not be a political statement now would it?
 
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A couple points recently appears in my brain . . .
(1) the day a hired driver purchases a car for the sole and exclusive use as a business tool (vis a vis delivering my pizzas) is the day I feel obligated to pay for his maintenance and repair bills. If I cannot account for the wear and tear and usage of that vehicle off my clock, then it just isn’t my liability. I have insurance for damages that occur on my time, and I would be interested to look at Workers’ Comp claims for the same issue to see what the feds think about it. (PS as long as you can hold that car topper out the window by hand such that it is an effective, lighted visual marketing tool for my business, while safely operating your vehicle to deliver the food, I am fine with not having it attached to your car).

(2) “fair” just never enters into the conversation since it is always someone else’s definition that is outrageous and exploitative. Nowhere has anyone ever showed direct documentation that REQUIRES any employer to pay the IRS deductible mileage rate to delivery personnel. What conversations need to be founded on is required rates and documentable legal requirements. FAIR is most often simply a tool for invoking emotional response because one wants more that what is being offered/provided. It really seldom accounts for all parties and issues under consideration.

I have successfully excised the delivery operation of our business. Our dine-in and pickup services have increased a lot, and our delivery costs have dropped waaaaayyyy off. Sure, wife enjoyed the tip money delivering, but the ancillary costs and challenges for delivery are nice to be done with.
 
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Thanks Nick for your response. :?:

Although most delivery vehicles are not purchased for the exclusive use of delivery, two points must be made.
  1. The “wear and tear” that happens while delivering is more extreme than what happens during normal driving. This is due to excessive stops and starts, braking, and the like.
  2. When you hire a driver, you are hiring his vehicle as well. If you believe that not be true, think about this: Driver says “oh sorry, can’t go down that road, it has too many potholes” or “oh sorry, no cartopper for me, can’t scratch the paint” and so on. What would you do?
Regarding the IRS mileage, $.51/mile is the recommended rate for business purposes. Although there is no law enforcing it, that is what they consider “fair.” If you want to argue the IRS, take it up with them. Until then, it is up to each individual driver whether or not they choose to accept the offered mileage (if any.)

I suppose you believe that vehicles magically get filled with gas, replace their own tires, oil, brakes, mufflers, etc. Well, guess what? They do not. Do ovens magically repair their own heating elements, conveyor belts, timers, etc.? Do your cooks pay for those repairs out of their hard-earned money?
 
PPG2270:
Thanks Nick for your response. :?:

Although most delivery vehicles are not purchased for the exclusive use of delivery, two points must be made.
  1. The “wear and tear” that happens while delivering is more extreme than what happens during normal driving. This is due to excessive stops and starts, braking, and the like.
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I would accept that argument from an employee who could provide clean documentation, I would never accept his/her word on that. Give me the start odometer at beginning of every week, and end of every week’s shift; then at EOM, we can look at the totals and see what’s what. The <4K miles they would drive for me versus the 8K+ they drive on their own time . . . you need to prove the “more extreme” argument with more than just saying it’s so. No actual, verifiable documentation . . . no proof. I have my documentation of driver miles on the clock. Should they be able to make a case, then we can negotiate the pro rata impact. Oh, BTW, better have records on routine maintenance as well, because negligence could be an issue for ownership side.
PPG2270:
Regarding the IRS mileage, $.51/mile is the recommended rate for business purposes. Although there is no law enforcing it, that is what they consider “fair.” If you want to argue the IRS, take it up with them. Until then, it is up to each individual driver whether or not they choose to accept the offered mileage (if any.)
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The IRS is only interested in setting the rate that some Fed agencies out there haggled to get to. They aren’t about “fair” to drivers or “recommending” . . . they are about “acceptable” reduction of federal revenues. Vast unions, corporations and transportation-based industries are lobbying HARD every year for increases in that mileage deduction; don’t be thinking that IRS has some sort of sympathy and/or love for delivery drivers and want to make their lives “fair”. That deduction is a political compromise with far bigger fish than local delivery drivers. Expedient and acceptable are far more appropriate words than “fair” for that tax deduction rate.

Is it a general guideline for reimbursements of documentable travel for job tasks? Definitely. Businesses can then turn around and deduct that from their tax liabilities. Is it desirable from an employee standpoint? Certainly. Could a business reimburse actual justifiable expenses turned in by employees? Yes. Do pizza delivery drivers hammer an hammer and hammer and hammer that IRS rate whenever they try to make a “fairness” case about compensation? Very often, and very often make implications that is is the required rate of reimbursement. Can the discussion by had and be productive without bringing up the IRS tax deduction rate that is not required by any agency? I contend it would be even more productive.

The thing that is coming to be is that many, many employee groups are finding that the irrational and non-productive labor practices are harbored in really rather few corporate entities. Sure, some smaller companies will try to cut corners and skim wages here and there. I here about a couple every year or so. But, it’s the other thousands of businesses out there operating on an ethical, legally correct, and enlightened “self-interest” foundation that comprise the vast majority of employers, or we would have a backlog of labor complaints and lawsuits going back years and years. The “rational mind” of negotiation is still in effect for much of the people trying to make a living and a retirement owning businesses.
 
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Ok I am sorry but the claim of excessive or hard use claims is total BS! Delivery vehicles such as UPS trucks, route drivers, the USPS… Taxis…etc… can make that claim. Once again… YOU DELIVER PIZZA! You make a couple of runs per hours. You create no more wear and tear than if you had to drive 30 miles each way through city traffic to get to your job. Get over it! (XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX) That fits so much better. (XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX) That was it. (XXXXXXXXXX) Drivers deliver pizza for minimal wages and tips! NOTHING MORE! The world keeps spinning when one driver leaves.(XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX) Pizza is still being delivered. The sad thing is that it is people that whine and complain and do not help improve working conditions that make it hard for owners to take serious claim to issues brought up by their drivers. Comments and arguements that go nowhere help nobody! (XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX)!

This post has been modifed and names and locations have been changed to protect the innocent. The innocent being…oh I better stop! :roll:
 
Wow a personal attack on ME and not on MY ARGUMENT. Can “I” get some moderation here?

I have worn various hats in this industry. Driver, management, GM for a PIG…er, BIG 3,and so forth. The ONLY group whose conditions have deteriorated over the last decade or so has been the drivers. It is FACT, get over it.

qcfmike wrote “You “were” a pizza delivery boy! That was it. Nothing more! You delivered pizza for minimal wages and tips! Once again…NOTHING MORE!”

This quote shows your true colors as to your thoughts on drivers, i.e. no-good, drifters, etc. and not having a “real job.” You go out on the ghetto streets late at night with a lit-up “rob me” sign on your car, money in your pocket, and food in your hot bag then tell me this is not a dangerous, substantive JOB. Do qcfmike’s comments express the opinion of others on this board? Do you not vaule your employees?

I hope the next time you call someone a “pizza delivery boy” to their face, they show you EXACTLY how insulting that comment is. You are not the end-all, you are a pizza shop owner. Nothing more, nothing less. Big whoop.
 
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NicksPizza:
The thing that is coming to be is that many, many employee groups are finding that the irrational and non-productive labor practices are harbored in really rather few corporate entities. Sure, some smaller companies will try to cut corners and skim wages here and there. I here about a couple every year or so. But, it’s the other thousands of businesses out there operating on an ethical, legally correct, and enlightened “self-interest” foundation that comprise the vast majority of employers, or we would have a backlog of labor complaints and lawsuits going back years and years. The “rational mind” of negotiation is still in effect for much of the people trying to make a living and a retirement owning businesses.
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For spacing concens, I didn’t want to quote the whole thing. There is no doubt that you make a clear and rational argument. Two very important and influential people in my life are owners of local pizza business for whom I worked. I consider these people friends and have no ill-will about their owning a business, making a profit from that business, and planning a prosperous retirement from that business.

My argument, Nick, is that anyone working for a business (not just pizza delivery, but ALL facets of any indsutry) should be able to pay their bills and be comfortable in life. Otherwise, what is the point of working? Now that may sound a little utopian, but the point holds true. Regarding IRS mileage and such, it only stands to logic that like any other business venture, one’s bills should be paid from wages earned (and tips when applicable.) One’s method of working (in this case, delivery vehicles) should not have to be subject to being paid for by wages and tips. Again, it is up to the individual driver to determine if the reimbursement offered is a “fair shake” for him or not. If accepted, there is no basis for complaint. If a person really wants to deliver pizza and wants to hold out for the IRS recommended mileage, well, good luck with that one.
 
Regarding the IRS mileage, $.51/mile is the recommended rate for business purposes. Although there is no law enforcing it, that is what they consider “fair.” If you want to argue the IRS, take it up with them. Until then, it is up to each individual driver whether or not they choose to accept the offered mileage (if any.)

I suppose you believe that vehicles magically get filled with gas, replace their own tires, oil, brakes, mufflers, etc. Well, guess what? They do not.

Based on information provided by AAA http://www.aaaexchange.com/Assets/Files … 202010.pdf

Operating costs per mile on a small sedan (typically used by delivery drivers)

  • Gas… 12.79 cents (adjusted to $3.60/gal from the $2.60/gal used by AAA)
    Maintenance. 4.21 cents
    Tires… 0.65 cents

This total is 17.65 cents per mile.

Since the vehicle is not exclusively used for deliveries the only other considerations would be the increased depreciation caused by the added miles and delivery insurance. If the vehicle is new the figure for an additional 5000 miles a year totals $120. This is 2.4 cents per mile. We should also allow for an additional $250 a year for the for proper insurance coverage for the added 5000 miles (5 cents per mile or less if more miles are driven for delivering). Let us be generous and call it a total of 26 cents per mile.

This is a far cry from the 51 cents touted by the delivery crowd. The IRS figure is for TAX RIGHT OFF PURPOSES nothing more.
 
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Thank you for your input Reuben. Again, the compensation package is between the store owner and the driver. If the driver accepts the job at the offered rates (wages, mileage reimbursement, benefits [or lack thereof], etc.,) then there is no basis for complaint once the driver begins to work.

The one thing that bothers me (and this does NOT apply to all stores/owners) is this:

“As of such and such date, you will now be making three dollars less per hour, and you will now not be compensated as much for each delivery.”

Now, what is a driver supposed to do? The store is essentially breaking the agreement of the original hiring. Did gas prices suddenly go down? I suppose the job is worth LESS than it was 15 years ago. Most people get raises, drivers are getting their overall compensation packages lowered in a time when costs are at an all time high. Obviously there is no respect for the drivers, and the workplace will suffer as a result. Stores will have constant turnover of the very type of moron that the industry stereotypes. There is just no room left for an individual trying to make a living delivering pizza and no room left for good veteran drivers. But I guess that is the way they want it.
 
Oh No…I have plenty of respect for hard working employees in any position… Including delivery drivers such as that Matt guy that posted here a while back. My problem is people that think they are to be held so much above eveyone else that they are so great…etc…etc…etc. I do not care what positions anyone has held or with whom. It is not pizza workers, drivers, customers…that I have issue with. It is people that only complain and whine and do not help solve issues they only make matters worse. I will gladly give a $5 tip on a $20 pizza when it is dropped off on my doorstep. I will tell the guy/girl thank you for getting it too me on time and hot. Oh, and I have never had one of them bitch about their car, wages, tips, kitchen workers, managers, owners, etc…etc…etc.
 
Ok, let’s take this one step at a time.

As far as you respecting hard-working employees and tipping well, that is great. So do I.

I do not believe that drivers are “supreme beings” that must be held in regard above everyone else. That is absurd. I just want a fair shake for everyone.

As far as I can tell, the subject of tips/mileage/etc. is taboo at best and against policy at worst when talking to a customer. In most cases, it can get an employee fired.

I left the industry for a myriad of reasons. If you must know, I left my GM position with Domino’s because of a divorce. (During my time there, I doubled the store’s revenue -but that is not saying much, some clever tricks took care of that. It was easy.) My last job in the industry was driving for an indy shop that started to use tip credit. I wished them well, and moved on. My education allowed me to secure employment in a field other than pizza delivery. Some veteran drivers who did not possess such education are now stuck with lowered wages, mileage, etc. I do realize that this does not apply to every store and every owner, but it IS out there. Please note: I am not what would be considered a “drifter.” I have worked at four places (with different “hats” at each one) and sadly,two of the four closed their doors. The only place I left because I found “fault” was the sub-min (tip credit) store. For the record, I could go back there tomorrow. I don’t burn bridges (except with Domino’s -they can eat my shorts) and I have never been fired from any job. I work for what I earn, and if I don’t like the situation I will move on.
 
PPG2270:
Thank you for your input Reuben. Again, the compensation package is between the store owner and the driver. If the driver accepts the job at the offered rates (wages, mileage reimbursement, benefits [or lack thereof], etc.,) then there is no basis for complaint once the driver begins to work.
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I suspect that you have now said all that needs to be said on this subject. Everything else is noise and bravado and discontent. Thank you, and good night.

Nothin’ but love for the pizza guys of the world. Absolutely nothin’ but love. Hard life, hard world . . . pizza makes it all taste better.
 
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PPG2270:
The only place I left because I found “fault” was the sub-min (tip credit) store.
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So you are taking our your frustrations with that one store (25% of your industry experience) on all of the members of Think Tank. The place you should be lobbying is not the pizza industry, it should be your state government. After all they are the ones who passed the laws that allow for sub minimum wages for tipped employees.

The reality is an owner generally has to deal with so many expenses that if they find a way to cut back, it gives them more money to keep the business afloat. Did the owner go and buy himself some expensive toy after implementing the tip credit? My suspicion is that he did not.
 
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Reuben:
PPG2270:
The only place I left because I found “fault” was the sub-min (tip credit) store.
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So you are taking our your frustrations with that one store (25% of your industry experience) on all of the members of Think Tank. The place you should be lobbying is not the pizza industry, it should be your state government. After all they are the ones who passed the laws that allow for sub minimum wages for tipped employees.

The reality is an owner generally has to deal with so many expenses that if they find a way to cut back, it gives them more money to keep the business afloat. Did the owner go and buy himself some expensive toy after implementing the tip credit? My suspicion is that he did not.
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Actually, he bought a new house. However, I don’t begrudge him that because he worked 6-7 days per week for 8 years to get it.

My “frustration” is not just with one store. It is also with the PIG 3 and any store stealing from their employees. These morons have millions in revenue and subsequently give drivers a pay cut across the board. Is it to keep pie prices at 1980’s levels? Small business owners and smaller chains should be up in arms over the $10 pizzas. Most of you are putting out higher quality products but find it hard to compete with $10 slop. By cutting drivers’ wages, they find it easier to make less profit on the $10 pizzas. You (the owners) get shafted on the competition aspect of the $10 pies, and the drivers get shafted on the lower wages paid. It’s pretty simple. This forum should expose them for the greedy basturds (sic on purpose) they are, and everyone could win.
 
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