Continue to Site

Increasing the flavor of dough

You will be looking for a couple of things;
  1. Look for the dough to increase in size (about 1.5 to 2 times its original size). Under refrigeration, this could take as long as two days.
  2. Make a crust and evaluate the flavor. The proof of the pudding is in the way it eats, or in your case, the flavor (taste and aroma).
    It sounds like you didn’t wipe the dough balls with a little salad oil. This helps to prevent any drying ao skinning over of the dough balls during their extended residence in the cooler. A slight tack to the dough is totally normal.
    Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor
 
Last edited:
You will be looking for a couple of things;
  1. Look for the dough to increase in size (about 1.5 to 2 times its original size). Under refrigeration, this could take as long as two days.
  2. Make a crust and evaluate the flavor. The proof of the pudding is in the way it eats, or in your case, the flavor (taste and aroma).
    It sounds like you didn’t wipe the dough balls with a little salad oil. This helps to prevent any drying ao skinning over of the dough balls during their extended residence in the cooler. A slight tack to the dough is totally normal.
    I’m a little confused, are you fermenting the dough/sponge/biga/poolish at room temperature? Sounds like it. If it is a biga or sponge, you can tear the top skin of it apart and actually see the internal cell structure, you then put the back of your hand lightly against the internal structure, if it sticks to your hand, it has not fermented enough, if it doesn’t stick, the fermentation is complete. This typically doesn’t work for a poolish as they are much too wet. In this case you will watch for the poolish to begin to receed. It is then fully fermented.
    Mix the fermented mass into the dough side ingredients just to get a smooth dough consistency, and then scale and ball. Box the dough balls and wipe with salad oil and follow a typical refrigerated dough management procedure, but don’t hold the dough for more than about 36 hours as the dough will most likely become over fermented beyonf this point and both flavor and performance will suffer.
    Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor
    Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor
 
Last edited:
MWTC,

The initial rise will be fairly slight, almost imperceptible to the un-aided eye. If there has been no rise whatsoever, it may well be that your starter culture was not at the peak of its activity. If this is so, then that is where a proofing box or ThermoKool-type unit comes in handy to increase the temperature above your current room temperature and promote a faster fermentation. Whatever method is used, at some point you should start to see a perceptible rise in the dough. But it won’t be a double or anything like that for the small amount of starter culture you are using, especially if it is not at the peak of its activity. It might be 25-50%, with the rise starting off slowly and accelerating with time. If your starter culture is on the weak side, and you do not use a proofing box or Thermo-Kool type unit to compensate, your dough may ultimately rise, but it could take over 30 hours. Sometimes, water is released from the dough after such a long period of fermentation and the dough may not perform particularly well. This result itself would suggest a weak starter culture, and would not be unusual with a dry culture that has been newly activated. Until the starter culture is fully functional, you would use more of it to compensate for its weak condition. With a fully functional starter, the dough can rise rather quickly, even to the point of doubling or tripling within a 12-15 hour period. Also, as mentioned before, some starters work faster than others.

It is possible to refrigerate unused dough balls. However, depending on the strength of the starter culture, you may need several hours warmup at room temperature to help the dough balls rise. Many people use a combination of a room-temperature fermentation, followed by refrigeration, and a final warmup period.

pizzanerd
 
Last edited:
Tom,

It is not a biga or poolish, it is the complete dough formulation. Complete room temp. fermentation, using 5% starter.

MWTC
 
Last edited:
PizzaNerd,

Do you think I should allow the starter to warm-up for a while before I start the mixing of the recipe? I did not allow a warm-up time this time.

MWTC
 
Last edited:
MWTC,

Ideally, you want the starter culture to be at the peak of its activity. If the starter has been in the refrigerator and you use it directly, it will take a longer time for the dough to ferment. In many of the dough recipes in Ed Wood’s book, he recommends feeding a cold starter and then allowing it to ferment at room temperature (68-72 degrees F) for 12 hours or for 6 hours in a proofing box at 85 degrees F. Since his recipes usually call for large amounts of starter (at preferment levels), you should be able to cut the recommended times for the much smaller amount of starter you would be using. Most people tend to feed the starter (with flour and warm water) and let it sit at room temperature, usually for a few to several hours, until it bubbles and rises in its container. The higher the rise in the container, the better the starter will perform. Otherwise, you may have to use more starter (and adjust the formula hydration downwardly to compensate) if you don’t have time to allow for a full activation.

If a starter culture has been in the refrigerator for a long period, e.g., for several weeks or more, it can sometimes take several days of refreshing to get it to its peak level of activity.
 
Last edited:
I am refreshing my starter every 3 days. It now bubbles at 45 minutes. Which suprised me. So you are saying that I should see the starter active before I start the mixing process. Or is it better to have a longer fermentation period for maximum flavor production, thus using a cold but viable starter, within the 3 day feeding period?

MWTC
 
Last edited:
MWTC,

That’s a good question. I suspect that both methods will work, and I have done some limited experimentation with the cold starter method (some bakers also use a cold preferment to regulate the dough temperature at the time of final mix), but I would personally prefer to use a smaller amount of a starter at its peak activity rather than use a larger amount but in a cold, somewhat questionable, condition. The 5% figure I suggested is predicated on the starter being at its peak activity level. On that basis, I think you should be able to have a window of 12-20 hours total. You can go longer but if you go too long, the performance of the dough will start to decline at some point.

You might find it necessary to tweak the 5% figure depending on the type(s) of flour you will be using, hydration levels, fermentation temperature, etc. There are too many variations in starter cultures, including the performance of the natural yeast, enzymes, and bacteria, all of which are temperature sensitive, so experimentation is usually unavoidable. You will have to learn the behavior of your particular starter, which almost always comes from experience. You should therefore feel free to experiment with different methods, including the use of a cold starter.
 
Last edited:
Thanks for the information and the willingness to share. I think I have enough to keep me advancing. 😃

MWTC
 
Last edited:
Pizzanerd,

The dough was doubled by the 24 hour mark. So I baked it. It was good but it was a little tighter than I would like. I would like it to be a little more airy. What would you recommend? More starter or as we discussed before getting the starter more active. Or more hydration and increase of water temp.

MWTC
 
Last edited:
MWTC,

FYI, it is well known to combine cake flour with another white flour in order to simulate the Italian 00 flour used to make authentic Neapolitan-style pizzas. The other white flour can be all-purpose flour, bread flour or high-gluten flour. It is also possible to combine pastry flour with those other flours. In fact, in her book, Pizza Napoletana!, by Pamela Sheldon Johns, Ms. Johns has a recipe, Classic Pizza Dough DOC, at page 89, that calls for combining pastry flour with unbleached all-purpose flour. At the time she wrote the book, in 1999, Ms. Johns was a frequent visitor to Italy (she now lives there) and was well aware of the 00 flours used by Italian pizza makers. However, at that time, 00 flours were very hard for home pizza makers, for whom the book was primarily intended, to find in the U.S. Also, 00 flours do not do particularly well in standard home ovens. I suspect it was because of those two reasons that the pastry flour/a-p flour combination was recommended. In like vein, Peter Reinhart, in his book, American Pie, which was published in 2003 and is also targeted to the home pizza maker, recommends all-purpose flour for the Neapolitan-style pizza. Having traveled throughout Italy to write his book, he also was well aware of the Italian 00 flours.

These days, there are many brands of imported Italian 00 flours available in the U.S. Caputo, alone, has three different 00 flours that can be used to make Neapolitan-style pizzas. However, for best results, high-temperature ovens capable of operating at over 800 degrees F are required. Combining cake flour or pastry flour with other white flours will work better in standard home ovens. It is also possible to combine 00 flours, which, in my opinion, have a nice flavor profile, with our domestic white flours to improve their use in a standard home oven, although it may be necessary to add some oil to the dough. Using a preferment in such a situation, or even a natural starter, is a good way of getting even more crust flavor.
 
Last edited:
60.png
MWTC:
The dough was doubled by the 24 hour mark. So I baked it. It was good but it was a little tighter than I would like. I would like it to be a little more airy. What would you recommend? More starter or as we discussed before getting the starter more active. Or more hydration and increase of water temp.
Click to expand...
MWTC,

It would help to know what your dough formulation is, and particularly the hydration and flour type/brand. It would also help to know the amount, by weight, of your starter and the percent of water used in your starter (the weight of the water divided by the weight of the starter). Please also indicate what mechanism you used to bake the pizza, that is, pizza stone, screen, pan, or whatever, and also the rack position and bake temperature. It will also help to know what size pizza you made and the weight of the dough ball for that particular size.
 
Last edited:
MWTC,

Sorry for not replying, really busy so I don’t have as much time as I want. The Biga is a 50/50 flour to water. The yeast is about 1 tablespoon for every 2 cups of the mixture. The cake flour I learned long ago from working in Pizzeria’s around New York and New Jersey. My God father 's, who are from southern Italy and owned 2 very succesful bakery’s in New York City, always used it with bread and Pizza. It seems to give a crispier crust. Don’t know why but it does. So to answer some of your questions the recipe I have given you is over 100 years old and is still used today in many pizzerias. Hope that helps.

Todd
 
Last edited:
PizzaNerd,

The recipe that I used is:

800 grams of All Trumps High Gluten
100 grams of ground Oats

25 grams of Starter = 5% of water weight.(512 grams) (Starter is 50% Honeyville Artistan and 50% 70 degree water)

500 grams of 73 degree water (I figured total water =512 grams, 12grams from the starter) = 57% if you include the oats with the flour, totaling 900 grams

1 Tbs Olive Oil
2 Tbs Honey
5 Tsp Salt

2 min mix, 5 min Autolyse, 5 min Knead

Produced 4-12 oz doughs plus 1-5oz mini dough

24 hour room temp. fermentation

I baked on a baking stone on the 2nd shelf from the bottom at 475 degrees, preheated for 1/2 hour, baked in a 12 inch seasoned tin plated steel 1- 1/2 inch pan.

Dough size was 12 oz.

MWTC
 
Last edited:
Without asctually seeing the dough first hand it is hard to say, but any of the actins you have described should help to speed things up a bit.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor
 
Last edited:
60.png
thincrust:
The yeast is about 1 tablespoon for every 2 cups of the mixture.
Click to expand...
ThinCrust,

Is that right? That seem like alot of yeast.

Are you saying you take 2 cups of the 50/50 biga and adding 1 TBS yeast to it. If that is correct, how long do you allow the biga to ferment before you mix it with the rest of the recipe? What is the temp. of the water in the biga and in the recipe?

MWTC
 
Last edited:
PN; You use the word “autolyse”, are you making reference to a rest period? I know what autolyse means, but I can’t figure out how it applies in this application, so I’m guessing it is in reference to a rest period? Am I right?
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor
 
Last edited:
MWTC,

Based on what you have presented, including your stated objective of a more open and airy crust, I would suggest the following changes:

First, I would replace the ground oats with All Trumps. I have not worked with oats in a pizza dough before, but oats do not have any gluten and may reduce the nature and strength of the gluten network and its ability to retain the gases of fermentation to the same degree as if you were to use only All Trumps. If you don’t see material improvement in the texture of the crust you are seeking, you can always decide to add back some ground oats. Without the oats, you may get a better feel for the flavors contributed by your new starter culture.

Second, I would increase the hydration of the dough to around 63%. The All Trumps has a protein content of around 14.2% and should be able to handle the 63% hydration, which is essentially the rated absorption for that flour.

Third, I would reduce the salt to around 1.5-1.75%. I estimate that you are now using around 3.1%. High salt levels will affect enzyme performance and slow down the rate of fermentation.

Fourth, I would preheat your stone at around 500 degrees F for about an hour, and I would not use the seasoned pan. Going directly onto the stone I think you should be able to get better oven spring and a more open and airy crumb, which should be helped by the high hydration of the dough. However, since you are using about 4.7% honey by my estimate, you may want to drop that to around 2% so that the bottom of your pizza doesn’t turn excessively brown or burn. If you are looking for a crispy crust, you can use a lower oven temperature. However, if the crust becomes too dry, that might take away from the open and airy characteristic you are looking for in the finished crust. Also, with the honey in the dough, you may also find that the bottom of the crust will turn darker than you’d like before you get the crispy effect in the crust.

If you decide to make changes to your dough formulation as suggested, I will leave to you whether you adopt the recommendations one at a time, which is a more scientific approach, or adopt all or several of the recommendations at one time.
 
Last edited:
Tom Lehmann:
PN; You use the word “autolyse”, are you making reference to a rest period? I know what autolyse means, but I can’t figure out how it applies in this application, so I’m guessing it is in reference to a rest period? Am I right?
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor
Click to expand...
Tom,

I assume you meant to direct your comments to MWTC. Technically, what MWTC is doing is not a classic autolyse as originally devised by Professor Raymond Calvel. That autolyse involved combining only flour and water, and adding the remaining ingredients after the autolyse period. However, over time, the autolyse has been modified by bakers who decided to throw all or most of the ingredients into the mixer bowl at the same time and to let the mixture rest, which they then called an autolyse rest period. So, the term autolyse has taken on a broader meaning over time of a rest period, as you noted. I assumed that MWTC decided to use a rest period in order to get a softer, more bread-like crumb.
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top