Increasing the flavor of dough

[MWTC]

PizzaNerd,

You’re Awesome.

I am looking forward to working with your suggestions.

MWTC

 

[thincrust]

MWTC, Sorry once again swamped. But it’s 1 tablespoon for a cup of water about 95 degrees with 1 cup if flour. It may look a little soupy but you can and some flour to stiffen it up, if you like. Also after I mix aboout 25 cups of flour with water. I set in my walk in and wait over night. This is not a hard process. Many people are making this more difficult than it should be. Let the Biga rise till it gets pimpley and use. A 18 hour rise in a walk in, or 6 to 8 at room temp. 75 or so.

Todd

 

[MWTC]

ThinCrust,

Thank-you for clairifying the yeast question.

I will give your technique a go.

Looks good. I’ve have experienced success with Poolishes and Bigas, and respect the results.

I’ll post my results and seek you out if I have any additional questions.

Thank-you for sharing your protocal.

MWTC

 

[MWTC]

PizzaNerd,

I didn’t tell you that I am using Kosher Salt. Do you know why some recipes give the option of using 2 tsp table salt or 3.5 tsp Kosher? That is why I used 5 tsp Kosher Salt.

MWTC

 

[pizzanerd]

MWTC,

No doubt some pizza operators are using Kosher salt somewhere, but as best I can tell most use ordinary table salt as obtained from their suppliers. It should be less expensive than Kosher salt. It is also unlikely that one can tell the difference in the finished crust.

As you may know, there is a difference between retail brands of Kosher salt. You didn’t indicate what brand you are using, but if you are using the Morton’s brand of coarse Kosher salt, 5 teaspoons comes to about 2.67% of the flour weight (900 grams). If you are using the Diamond Crystal brand, 5 teaspoons comes to about 1.89% of the weight of flour.

Can you tell me what dough recipe you plan to use based on Todd’s (thincrust’s) posts? I had some difficulty piecing the recipe together. For example, what kind of flour(s) do you plan to use to make the “biga”? And, how much salt (and type/brand) and how much water will you be using? I gather that you will be scaling down Todd’s recipe, so what will the final dough formulation be for your purposes and how will you combine everything?

If it will help you, if the biga is based on equal volumes of flour and water, that suggests a biga hydration of about 180% (the weight of one cup water divided by the weight of one cup flour), or about 65% water (the weight of one cup water divided by the combined weight of one cup water and one cup flour). This would be a thin preferment, thinner than even a poolish. My calculations assume that a cup of water weighs a little over 8 ounces (technically it is closer to 8.3 ounces) and a cup of flour weighs 4.5 ounces (this is a guesstimate since the actual weight depends on the method used to measure out the flour, which can vary from one person to another). FYI, if 4 pounds of biga are added to 12.5 pounds of cake flour and 50 pounds of All Trumps, the rate of usage of the biga would be about 6.5% (4/62 = 6.5%).

 

[MWTC]

PizzaNerd,

I am using Diamond Crystal Kosher salt. So according to your calculations I am right on with my 5 tsp in my dough recipe. Could be a little less.

Thankyou for the help with the ThinCrust pizza dough recipe. I am first going to do as you suggested with use of the starter, by omiting the oats, cut down the honey, to see what I get with the room temp. counter rise. I don’t want to loose focus on my original intent, Maximum Flavor development. I took out a cup of starter last night, to really get it going before I start the counter rise. And it is really going now, it is frothing, doubled in size, 17 hours!!! It might be a mistake but what do I have to loose, a little flour. I will be using the 5% starter in the recipe. After I experience the starter dough I will then experiment with ThinCrust’s recipe.

MWTC

 

[MWTC]

ThinCrust,

Could you put your recipe into bakers percents? It would make it much simpler to duplicate.

MWTC

 

[thincrust]

MWTC, God it been a long time since I’ve put in that form but I will work on it and hopefully post it. Don’t want to start a fight with pizzanerd but why regular Iodize Salt it’s nasty. It really bugs me. I use Sea Salt in everything I know it’s old school but that how I was taught. Just asking a question.

Todd

 

[MWTC]

I’ll be going back to Sea Salt as soon as I use the Kosher salt I have.

MWTC

 

[MWTC]

PizzaNerd,

Excellent advise. The dough came out much better with the modifications. Much lighter and airy. Now that I am starting to get a feel of using the starter I can continue with variations to see the results.

Thanks again for the help

MWTC

 

[pizzanerd]

MWTC:

The dough came out much better with the modifications. Much lighter and airy. Now that I am starting to get a feel of using the starter I can continue with variations to see the results.

MWTC,

Good news. If you can get your hands on some Caputo 00 Pizzeria flour sometime, try combining some of that with your All Trumps. A lot of people actually favor the flavor of the 00 flour over the domestic white flours. Maybe you will too. You can use only the 00 flour but it will not bake up well in your home oven. You might try a Caputo-only skin just to see if you like the flavor after it has baked up. If you like it, you can slowly introduce it to your All Trumps. Together with your starter/preferment, you may get the crust flavor you have been looking for.

 

[lilian]

hello guys
is 00 low protene or ground finer and when you add it should hydration be lower lets say 20% 00 80 % all trump what is the hydration drop to from the 63 formula ?

 

[pizzanerd]

lilian:

is 00 low protene or ground finer and when you add it should hydration be lower lets say 20% 00 80 % all trump what is the hydration drop to from the 63 formula ?

lilian,

The rated absorption for the Caputo 00 Pizzeria flour is 55-57%, and most dough recipes that you will see from the miller and importer of the flour and also from the U.S VPN (Verace Pizza Napoletana) Association that promotes authenticity of the Neapolitan style will call for that level of hydration. However, a lot of people like to push the hydration envelope for that flour to over 60%, and in some cases over 65%. That is usually in the context of using very high temperature ovens (like a Neapolitan wood-fired oven) that can get to at least 800 degrees F (and usually much higher) and bake a pizza in less than two minutes. A high hydration Caputo dough in a home oven will not perform nearly as well because people tend to bake the pizzas too long at the lower temperatures trying to get color in the crust and the crust can become stiff and crackery as a result. So, a lower hydration is more appropriate, along with other compensatory changes. Using a Caputo 00/All Trumps blend such as you mentioned improves matters but the hydration can still be high. I think a reasonable hydration for such a blend is around 60-62% but can most likely go higher, for the reasons mentioned above. Dom DeMarco of DiFara’s in Brooklyn uses a mix of 00 and high-gluten flours. He once told me that he used 25% 00 flour and 75% high-gluten flour (he tends to favor the All Trumps), both by volume. He bakes the pizzas in a Bakers Pride deck oven.

 

[MWTC]

PizzaNerd,

Tell me of I got this right.

So what we are looking for is, once the recipe is fermenting, is a doubling of the dough. And the longer we can stretch out the process, the more the potential of the starter and the chosen flour or combinations of flour, the better/stronger the potential flavor increase, up to the potential of the combinations. So choosing to use small amounts of starter (fully activated) and colder water (up to a point), plus correct amounts of salt, sugar, and oil, the potential is achieved.

If we choose a bulk fermentation (stretched out as far as possible) and then a balling up after the initial doubling, proceeded by refrigeration, maximum flavor increase should be maximiumized. To the potential of the combinations, given the limits of our baking options.

MWTC

As a side question. What is the difference between Kosher Salt and Sea salt? I have been told that Sea Salt is the best choice for pizza dough.

 

[pizzanerd]

MWTC,

I would say that your first statement appears to be correct except that sometimes the dough will not rise much during the first long fermentation period (in bulk) but increase in volume after dividing, but not always by double (it might be 50%). Also, using cold water usually isn’t necessary for a room-temperature ferment. Using room temperature water and flour will usually yield a dough that falls in the finished dough temperature range of 70-80 degrees F.

As for your second statement, using a period of cold retardation after a period of room-temperature fermentation is often for convenience of the user. In Naples, doughs are typically not refrigerated for fermentation purposes but only for very short term holding. In the U.S., many pizza operators who specialize in the Neapolitan style, including those who use 00 flours (and commercial yeast), do use refrigeration but, again, it is for their convenience (e.g., they don’t throw the unused dough away at the end of the day and they can manage their dough ball inventory better). When the dough is refrigerated, it is usually subjected to a room-temperature warm-up before using. I might add that the VPN rules do not allow for refrigeration of the dough, but some operators who are certified by the VPN do it anyway and either hope that the rules aren’t enforced or they just don’t care. In your case, it is your dough and you can do what you want with it.

Kosher salt is similar to table salt except that the grains are larger and of irregular shape. Most Kosher salts are also free of additives and preservatives. Sea salts are formed by evaporation of seawater. The particle size can vary from fine to coarse. They also retain minerals and minor impurities that are said to contribute to their flavor and color. Some of those minerals also act as nutrients for the yeast. For pizza dough, you want to use fine-grained salts so that they dissolve more completely. Consequently, when using Kosher salt, my practice is to dissolve the salt in the water before adding other ingredients. No doubt there will be a pizza operator somewhere who is using sea salt, but most don’t, either because of cost considerations or because they can’t tell the difference at the dough and crust levels.

 

[MWTC]

Thanks PizzaNerd

I know you have experienced the Starters from Sourdo.com. Would you describe the flavor effects of the different ones that you have tried.

MWTC

 

[MWTC]

ThinCrust,

thincrust:

it’s 1 tablespoon for a cup of water about 95 degrees with 1 cup if flour. It may look a little soupy but you can add some flour to stiffen it up, if you like. Also after I mix about 25 cups of flour with water. I set in my walk in and wait over night.

Would you clairify that for me.

Is the 25 cups of flour and water a biga? If it is, how much yeast are you puttin in it. By your first statement it would be 25 table spoons.
Or are you saying that you would start a biga at 1 cup of flour and water by volume with the one tablespoon of yeast and add it to 25 cups of flour and water by volume and let it set over night? Or is it something else that I am not understanding. :?:

MWTC

 

[pizzanerd]

MWTC:

I know you have experienced the Starters from Sourdo.com. Would you describe the flavor effects of the different ones that you have tried.

MWTC,

My tastebuds and nose aren’t as sensitive as they used to be, so I am not the best one to comment on the nuances and subtleties of the different starter cultures that are out there, including the Italian starter cultures from sourdo.com (Ischia and Camaldoli), and those that were created using wild yeast. However, I am sensitive to the lactic acid/acetic acid factors and, having made all kinds of doughs using both commercial yeast and natural starters/preferments, there is little doubt in my mind about the postiive contributions of such starters/preferments in terms of crust flavors, textures, and aromas, and especially when only room-temperature fermentation is used (or the fermentation temperatures are controlled within the optimum range). Combining those benefits with the right flour (with a good flavor profile) should produce highly acceptable results. Unfortunately, this is hard to do on a consistent basis in a commercial setting. Some artisan bakers are able to do it and have adapted their processes and systems to accommodate natural starter cultures/preferments, but most pizza operators have had little or no experience or background using and managing starter cultures/preferments. The few who have overcome the hurdles, like Anthony Mangieri at Una Pizza Napoletana in NYC, are able to charge $21 for a 12" Margherita pizza, with people lining up to buy them in UPN’s case.

 

[thincrust]

MWTC, I use a lot of yeast if I use 8 cups of water and 8 cups of flour, All Trumps, I will use 2 to 3 ounces of yeast. It depends how it looks. Also I use warm water, 100 to 105, There nothing better than Pissed off yeast to make a great Biga. And pizza nerd brings up some good points. True Artisan or Authnetic Neopolitan Pies are very hard to come by. Most people will not spend the time nor effort to do it the old way. I will never forget My Godfathers mixing their bread dough by hand, I mean 50 bags of flour, it was impressive. I don’t think they started using mixers until the 70’s. Also there is a book out on sour dough cultures. I think the authors is a guy named Wood. Might be wrong I read years ago.

Todd

 

[pizzanerd]

thincrust:

Most people will not spend the time nor effort to do it the old way. I will never forget My Godfathers mixing their bread dough by hand, I mean 50 bags of flour, it was impressive. I don’t think they started using mixers until the 70’s. Also there is a book out on sour dough cultures. I think the authors is a guy named Wood. Might be wrong I read years ago.

Todd,

Chris Bianco, of Pizzeria Bianco in Phoenix, mixes his dough entirely by hand, using 50-pound bags of flour. He said that he started doing this when he first moved to Phoenix (from the Bronx) because he couldn’t afford a commercial mixer. He now occasionally grouses that he is getting too old for that sort of thing, but I believe he still mixes and kneads his dough by hand, even though he has become so successful that he can afford any equipment he wants. But, he is still a purist about everything he does. He uses an organic Giusto’s flour milled to his requirements, he makes his own fresh mozzarella cheese on the premises (he even smokes some of the cheese with his own homemade smoker), grows his own herbs or sources them from local farmers, uses a local Arizona olive oil blended especially for him, and uses imported San Marzano tomatoes (maybe even the DOP variety). I understand that he uses the “old dough” method, based on commercial yeast, but it isn’t clear whether he is recycling dough from one day’s production to the next day’s production or whether he makes “new” old dough for that purpose. As you can see, he is an artisan pizza maker of the first order. Unless you arrive at his place before it opens, you won’t get in or else you will have to wait a few hours to get seated.

The book you referred to is Ed Wood’s book, Classic Sourdoughs, A Home Baker’s Handbook. Ed is the force behind sourdo.com, which sells sourdough starters with origins all around the world.