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Increasing the flavor of dough

MWTC,

Have you switched from a natural poolish to a natural biga, or are you still using the poolish preferment but have misnamed it?

There are quite a few people who use both a natural starter/preferment and commercial yeast. Even artisan bakers do it. Home pizza makers usually do it to get more lift in the dough and a better oven spring. However, I do not combine natural starters/preferments with commercial yeast because I have found that the commercial yeast overtakes the natural yeast–to the point where I can’t detect the flavors contributed by the natural yeast. I would rather use more starter/preferment. But I don’t want to discourage you from trying the combination. It is a normal part of your education in this area. And maybe your tastebuds and nose are better than mine.

How you use your ThermoKool unit will depend on your dough formulation and the amount of preferment you plan to use and its degree of readiness. I would start with a fermentation temperature of 18-20 degrees F (64-68.8 degrees F) and a fermentation window of around 12-15 hours before dividing and forming into individual dough balls for another proof/ripening period of about 3-4 hours. Those windows may be longer or shorter depending on the hydration of your preferment and its degree of readiness, although I am assuming that your preferment is quite active. Watching a fermenting dough batch is a lot like watching wet paint dry, but you will want to note the changes in the dough over time, especially the point where the dough starts to rise in a noticeable manner, so that you get an idea as to how your particular preferment performs with time and temperature. The ThermoKool unit is a “dumb” unit and will only do what you program it to do (operate at a particular temperature) so you will no doubt have to do a fair amount of experimentation, especially if you change your dough formulation, preferments, and preferment quantities. In this respect it’s no different than using commercial yeast.
 
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I am a little confused by the terminology. Please straighten me out.

My preferment is: 400 grams flour, 250 grams water, which includes the starter of 120 grams.

I called it a “Natural Biga” because it is not 100% hydration which I understand to be a poolish.

The starter is a 50/50 mix of water and flour. But that is only the starter used in the 63% preferment.

What is my preferment called?

MWTC
 
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MWTC,

You are confusing the “final dough” with the “preferment”. In your case, you said earlier that your latest dough formulation uses a flour/water/starter culture mix of 120 grams, of which 60 grams is flour and 60 grams is water (of course, there is wild yeast in the mix also). That is your preferment. And because the flour and water are of equal weight (60 grams each), its hydration is 60 g. flour/60 g. water, or 100%. That is technically a poolish. At some point, you combine that poolish with more flour, more water, salt, honey and oil. Once they are all mixed and kneaded together, they form the “final dough”. That final dough can have a “final” hydration of 63%. The final dough is not a poolish and it is not a biga.

I often draw a distinction between a starter culture that is used solely for leavening purposes and a starter culture that is used in a larger quantity as a preferment. For example, if you use a starter culture at, say, up to 5% of the weight of flour or water, it will act essentially as a leavening agent only (and a slow one at that). But if you increase it to say, 15% and above, it acts both as a leavening agent and as a source of increased acid production and as a mechanism for tightening and strengthening the gluten structure, among other possible effects. A small amount of the starter culture will not have those effects.

There is nothing particularly intutitive in all this, and it certainly helps to have a technical and scientific background, but usually you have to do some studying in this area to become fully comfortable with it. When I started, I researched and read on the subject as much as I could.
 
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pizzanerd:
MWTC,

You are confusing the “final dough” with the “preferment”. In your case, you said earlier that your latest dough formulation uses a flour/water/starter culture mix of 120 grams, of which 60 grams is flour and 60 grams is water (of course, there is wild yeast in the mix also). That is your preferment. And because the flour and water are of equal weight (60 grams each), its hydration is 60 g. flour/60 g. water, or 100%. That is technically a poolish. At some point, you combine that poolish with more flour, more water, salt, honey and oil. Once they are all mixed and kneaded together, they form the “final dough”. That final dough can have a “final” hydration of 63%. The final dough is not a poolish and it is not a biga.
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This is where you are missing what I am doing. I take the 120 grams of starter, (which I ageee is a poolish) add it to just 400 grams of flour and just 250 grams of water, (which in now my “natural biga”) (actually I am including the 60 grams of flour and 60 grams of water from the starter in the 400 and 250 grams of flour and water in the preferment) allow it to rise for 24 hours. Then (after the 24 hour rise) add it to the remaining ingredients, flour, water, salt, honey and oil. Which then becomes the “Final Dough” Then into the fridge for cold fermentation.

So I am using a Starter, and a Biga, which creates my final dough.

MWTC
 
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MWTC,

Ah. Now I see what you are doing and saying. I have never seen anyone use a two-stage preferment process like you described. Can you tell me your logic for using that method? As for what to call your preferment, based on your numbers, what you end up with at the end of the two-stage preferment process is neither a poolish nor a biga. What you have at the end of the two-step process is a mixture of flour, water and wild yeast with a hydration of 62.5%. That is closer to what is technically considered a “sponge”, which is a preferment that is similar in many respects to a poolish but is stiffer (a typical hydration for a sponge is 60-63%). It exhibits much of the behavior of a poolish (with a doming and receding of the sponge). It is perhaps improper to refer to your concoction as a sponge since it is not based on using commercial yeast and I have never heard of a sponge being referred to as a “natural” sponge. The similarity in your case is the hydration only.

One of the potential problems you may experience with your formulation and preparation methodology is that if the amount of the two-stage preferment is large in relation to the desired final dough weight, the final dough into which your two-stage preferment is incorporated may not have enough sugar left after the 24-hour room temperature fermentation and subsequent cold fermentation of the two-stage preferment. If this happens, the finished crust may have insufficient coloration. In the artisan bread world, this condition is often compensated for by the addition of diastatic malt to the final dough.

I look forward to your results.
 
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Glan to see that we are on the same page. I was getting a little frustrated.

The logic behind the move is that I have achieved the best flavor improvement from using my version of a biga. Which was better than the poolish that I have experimented with. And using some of the information you gave me in the past, a 50% biga was closest to the flavor that I was desiring but it was to stiff, IMHO. So I went to a 63% biga, which worked well for me. But it improved things only a little. I am seeking more falvor than that biga produced, even though it was the best at that point. So moving to the starter arena. I understand that you use the starter the same as commercial yeast to a certian extent. So it is just logical progression. Create the biga using the starter and continue as before. Everything seems very good up to this point. I will be baking one from that version tonight. I am keeping my fingers crossed. If that works well, the next move will be to experiment with the mixing of flours that we discussed before. Then to different starters. Alot of fun in the future!!!

I will be keeping an eye on the browning that you spoke of, because I do want that browning effect. How much diastatic malt would you recommend that I try, in percent, if that is necessary?

MWTC
 
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MWTC:
How much diastic malt would you recommend that I try, in percent, if that is necessary?
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MWTC,

The amount that is sometimes recommended is 0.5-1% of the total flour. Since you added honey to your dough, you may be OK. Yeast likes honey.
 
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PizzaNerd,

WOW, this is the best dough I have ever made.

Does need some assistance on the browning front. I will try the diastatic malt powder, per your suggestion.

Try this, I would love for you to rate this technique. Just to see how you would rate the results in comparison to what you have produced so far.

Fantastic results.

No doubt, moving in the right direction. 😃

MWTC
 
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MWTC,

I’m glad to see that you are making real progress in achieving your objectives as you originally stated them when you started this thread.

At some point, you might want to shorten one or both of the two phases of your preferment development. That might help avoid having to use diastatic malt. There are other ways of getting more crust color, but I would rather see you achieve it through the natural fermentation/ripening process itself if possible, even though the diastatic malt (don’t use nondiastatic malt) is a natural ingredient and provides additional amylase performance to extract more sugar from the damaged starch in the flour. If you shorten the front end of your fermentation process, you may be able to lengthen the cold fermentation step by a modest amount to compensate while not using up the fermentiscible sugars.

When your Caputo 00 Pizzeria flour (not the Caputo Extra Blu 00) arrives, that will give you an opportunity to achieve a different flavor profile for the crust. It is mainly because of the differences in the flour. As a start, I would recommend the 12-15 hour bulk rise and 3-4 hours for the divided dough balls, at 18-20 degrees C, using your ThermoKool unit. From a process standpoint, that will fairly closely simulate what is done in Naples by the two or three pizzerias there that use natural starters (although there are variations among them). The 00 flours are not well suited to home oven temperatures so you won’t get the same degree of crust coloration that you would get in a very-high temperature oven, such as an authentic wood-fired oven used in Naples. But you should be able to get an idea as to the unique flavor profile of the 00 flour. I have found that when using the Caputo 00 flour with a natural preferment in small quantity (around 5% of the weight of the formula flour), for essentially leavening purposes only, you can avoid having to use any oil or sugar in the dough in a home oven setting (Neapolitan pizzaioli do not use any oil or sugar in their doughs either). That way, you get only the natural flavors. You can always layer on other types of flavors later if you so choose.

My starters now lay quietly in repose in my refrigerator, but when I have a chance to shake them out of their lethargy and refresh and use them, I will try to do what you did to see how your results compare with what I have done before.
 
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PizzaNerd,

Thanks again for all of the excellent advice.

I do have the Caputo 00 Pizzeria flour. I got a 50 lb bag. That should keep me for quite a while!!!

I started another batch last night. The NatBigaSpg is 12 hours old and I was going to use 1% diastatic malt (4 tsp.) at the 24 hour point. It has doubled but the way I have been doing it (24 Hrs) is much bigger than it is at this point (quadrupled). Using your advise I will continue with the mixing of the remaining ingredients minus the diastatic malt to see what the shorter time frame contributes to the browning. If that does not materially effect it, in a postitve way, I will experiment with the diastatic malt.

Then on with the Caputo 00 Pizzeria flour as you advise.

MWTC

Time to wake that sleeping puppy up. 🙂
 
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pizzanerd how greatly this preferments business can effect the flaovre and texure of the final dough ? is it s postive noticable difference ?
 
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lilian,

In my experience, the differences are positive and very noticeable–usually with the first bite of the pizza crust and I don’t have particularly sensitive tastebuds or nose (which contribute in about equal measure to defining the sensation of taste). Remember, there are literally hundreds of biochemical activities and byproducts of fermentation that are produced when using natural starters/preferments, and these manifest themselves in subtleties and complexities of crust flavor, texture and aroma that you will not get to the same degree using other types of leavening agents.

I believe the best results are achieved using a long, room-temperature (or controlled) fermentation/ripening of the final dough into which the natural starter/preferment is incorporated. And the longer you can hold off using the dough without its overfermenting, the more pronounced the crust flavors and aromas are likely to be. Moreover, the flavor, aroma and texture of the finished crust can be controlled to a great degree by the proper selection of starter culture, the maintenance of the starter/preferment (including its hydration), and the proper selection of fermentation times and temperatures for the final dough. My personal favorite to date is using a natural starter/preferment with the Caputo 00 Pizzeria flour, although I have also had good results using other flours, notably high-gluten flours.

Commercial preferments using commercial yeast will also do a good job of enhancing crust flavor but not to the same degree as natural starters/preferments in my opinion. In my limited experience using commercial yeast preferments in the pizza dough realm, I found the crust flavors to mimic artisan bread crusts (e.g., French baguettes) based on commercial yeast. I liked the flavors but not for pizza crusts. The advantage of commercial preferments is that they are far easier to manage, especially in a commercial setting. If it were easy to work with and manage natural starters/preferments in a commercial pizza setting, more people would be doing it. The reality is that only a few are.

Straight doughs using commercial yeast can’t really compete with the flavor and other byproducts of the use of natural and commercial preferments, even if doughs are cold fermented and held for several days. It is still better to use long cold fermentations in a commercial application if you want to maximize crust flavor, but there are inherent limitations to the degree of flavor enhancement you can achieve naturally (that is, without additives and the like). Even if you could make and cold ferment a straight dough for a couple of weeks, when baked up it still would not have the degree and complexity of crust characteristics as using a natural starter/preferment.

One of the aspects of the use of natural starters/preferments that does not get sufficient attention in my opinion is the one you mentioned–texture. The crumb of a pizza crust based on the use of a natural starter/preferment will be stretchy and not tear like an ordinary piece of bread. If you pull the crumb with your fingers it will be like pulling on a rubber band. That texture is similar to what you will see in artisan sourdough breads and gives that chewy characteristic common to artisan sourdough breads. It is possible to get a classic (e.g., San Francisco sourdough) flavor in a pizza crust, but that would require using the right starter culture, and the flavor may be too intense for a pizza crust.
 
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pizza nerd thank you thank you . natural preferment ? i allways thought that natural preferment allways contribute sour flavor to the final crust i that the case ?
 
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lilian:
i allways thought that natural preferment allways contribute sour flavor to the final crust i that the case ?
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lilian,

As you can see from this link, http://www.sourdo.com (click on Our Sourdough Cultures), there are quite a few different strains of starters that can be used for bread baking and for other applications, including pizza dough for certain yeast strains. It is also possible to make your own starter culture, based on wild yeast where you live. The commercial Italian starters (Ischia and Camaldoli) available from sourdo.com are popular among those who are trying to replicate naturally-leavened doughs as are made by two or three of the top pizzerias in Naples. At the fermentation temperatures I mentioned in an earlier post in this thread (18-20 degrees C), the ultimate crust flavors will not be sour. You would have to use higher temperatures to get a more sour flavor, or else let your culture to become really “rank” before using and use a lot of it.

I personally do not like strong sourdough flavors in a pizza crust. I love the flavors in a sourdough bread, such as the famous San Francisco bread, but not in pizza crusts. You can take most cultures and adapt them through hydration, feeding (including nutrients for the yeast), and fermentation temperatures to get them to emphasize either the acetic or lactic acid component. I prefer the lactic acid component because it is more pleasant tasting in the finished crust. Acetic acid is a stronger acid in terms of palate sensitivity, and a little bit goes a long way. If the acid mix is just right, then you won’t have that really sour taste.
 
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i have visited sourdo and they say that their italian clutur produce a very sour bread and that is not what i am looking for have you had an experience with their italian culture ? you stated that if i want to have a mild not sour flavore out of the italian starter i should use the cold rise but you also said that acetic acid is produce from high temp i thought that lactic acid is produced when you allow the yeast to work at room temp and the acetic acid is produced at lower temp 33 to 50 .
well what i want out of my pizza is a depth in bread flavor no sour flavor i want to order their italian starter and do a cold rise on it and then use about 0.2 to 0.25% idy to help in rising so if you had good result with their italian starter please let me know thank you for your help
 
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lilian,

I have used both the Ischia and Camaldoli starters for pizza dough (for several different pizza styles, not just Neapolitan) and I can tell you that the crusts are mild tasting. I can’t speak for sourdo but I suppose it’s possible that they wanted to emphasize the sour aspect of sourdough breads since that is what a lot of people are after when it comes to sourdough bread. As I believe I noted earlier, many cultures can be modified to create really sour flavors.

I might add that the fellow who made the two Italian starters available to sourdo.com originally comes from Naples and has intensively studied the science of dough and the Neapolitan pizza market, and knows intimately all of the pizzaioli at the pizzerias that use natural starters. From what I have read of his writings on these matters, he has never considered the crusts based on the natural starters, including those he made available to sourdo, to be sour. In fact, my dough formulations for the Neapolitan style were largely derived from his dough formulations that he posted (but has since removed) at another forum.

In case I didn’t make myself clear in what I have written in this thread, I would like to emphasize that virtually all of my use of natural starters/preferments, including the two Italian starters, has been with doughs at ambient room-temperature, trying as much as possible to keep the dough fermentation/ripening temperatures within the 18-20 degrees C range that I previously mentioned. I am aware of some who use a combination of room temperature fermentation (or close to it), followed by a period of cold fermentation (in coolers or refrigerators), and a final period of tempering of the dough at room temperature before using, however I do not use that method. I might consider it for a flour other than the Caputo 00 flour, but not for the Caputo by itself, which is not particularly well adapted to cold fermentation (even though many pizza operators who use the Caputo and commercial yeast do use cold fermentation).

I can’t speak for what you have read or heard about acetic versus lactic acid production other than to say that there is a lot of conflicting information out there on this point and that in my experience higher ambient temperatures (e.g., above about 85 degrees F) tend to favor the production of acetic acids and lower ambient temperatures (below about 85 degrees F) tend to favor lactic acid production. There are a lot of variables involved, including the hydration of the starter cultures, their refreshment, quantity of use, and the availability of adequate nutrients for the yeast, so one will have to experiment to determine the fermentation temperatures and other factors that lead to a good balance between the two acids. This can vary from one person to another because there are varying degrees of “sourâ€Â
 
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“pizzanerd” said:
I can’t speak for what you have read or heard about acetic versus lactic acid production other than to say that there is a lot of conflicting information out there on this point and that in my experience higher ambient temperatures (e.g., above about 85 degrees F) tend to favor the production of acetic acids and lower ambient temperatures (below about 85 degrees F) tend to favor lactic acid production. There are a lot of variables involved, including the hydration of the starter cultures, their refreshment, quantity of use, and the availability of adequate nutrients for the yeast, so one will have to experiment to determine the fermentation temperatures and other factors that lead to a good balance between the two acids. This can vary from one person to another because there are varying degrees of “sourâ€Â
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MWTC,

Unfortunately, I can’t help you with this one. If you research the subject of natural starters/prefements, you will find a lot of conflicting information, even among the experts. Much of what you will find is by individuals with little or no formal education on the subject, and based on their own experiences in their own kitchens. It is largely anecdotal, and you might understand what is written, because it is written for other laypersons, but there is a high probability that much of it is wrong from a technical/scientific standpoint. The stuff you will read from people who are experts in the field, with formal technical education and experience and the like, is too complicated and technical for laypeople to understand. You will only become dazed and confused.

In my case, I have relied on my own experiments with starters/preferments. As long as I am able to get the results I am after, and reproduce them on a consistent basis (which is no small task since I don’t work every day with natural starters/preferments), it doesn’t matter what anyone else says. I don’t have to be an expert in biochemistry or food science to make a good pizza dough. As noted previously, I often work with small amounts of starters (sometimes less than a teaspoon for a dough ball), so I think I escape a lot of the problems that lead to overly sour pizza crusts. When I operate at the preferment level, I tend to start with around 10-20% (of the formula flour) and increase it if the hydration of the final dough is on the low side (e.g., below 40%), or if my room temperature is on the low side (as it usually is in winter), or if my starter is not at the level of peak activity. Many bread dough recipes call for over 40-50% preferment, where the preferment, especially if allowed to ferment for a long time, can lead to a fair level of sourness in the finished product. I personally don’t operate at those levels for pizza dough.

Since you recently indicated that you were happy with your recent results, perhaps you can comment on the flavor and other aspects of the crusts you made using your natural preferment.
 
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I’ll be baking one up tonight using the shorter room tempature rise of 12 hours. I’ll report back on that tonight.

MWTC
 
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