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Increasing the flavor of dough

pizza nerd thank you for your reply
the reason why i want to use the idy is to help in rising is the natural yeast enough to get the desired valoum ?
 
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lilian:
the reason why i want to use the idy is to help in rising is the natural yeast enough to get the desired valoum ?
lilian,

It would be helpful to have an idea as to what you consider to be an adequate oven spring that you feel that you have to use commercial yeast to achieve it. As I am sure you know, there are other factors besides residual yeast in the dough at the time a pizza is baked that are implicated in oven spring. Yeast is one of them but I personally consider the yeast to be secondary to the amount of moisture in the dough that gets converted to steam when the dough comes into contact with a high oven temperature. In my case, I made several Caputo-based pizzas using very small quantities of natural starter (less than 5% of the weight of flour in most cases), and a higher than rated hydration for the Caputo 00 flour (I used around 60-62%), and got what I considered to be quite good oven spring. I was using a home oven with a preheated pizza stone since I don’t have access to a very high temperature oven that is better suited to making Caputo pies. To compensate, I used a thicker dough (with a thickness factor of around 0.09) along with the higher hydration. I also used some oil in the dough, but not always. Had I had a very high temperature oven that could deliver temperatures of from 800-1000 degrees F, the corniciones (rims) would have been much larger.

In light of your obvious interest in this subject, lilian, I would like to suggest that you amble over to the pizza forum at http://www.pizzamaking.com/. There you will find an enormous amount of information, including tons of photos, about pizzas made using Caputo and other flours and natural starters/preferments, including those based on the two sourdo Italian starters (the most popular) but also homemade starters. Look under the Neapolitan Style and the Starters/Sponges sections to get examples of pizzas baked in high temperature ovens, with very impressive oven spring. You haven’t indicated what type of oven you are using or are contemplating using but you will find examples pretty much across the entire temperature spectrum.
 
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PizzaNerd,

Reporting in on the last bake, using the batch of dough with the only change was the length of the “biga” ferment time. It went from 24 hours to 12 hours. Guess what I lost? Oven sping. The flavor was excellent and the texture was excellent but the oven spring was noticeably deminished. I allowed only an hour and a half counter rise but that was the same as the other dough with the 24 hour fermentation before refrigeration. I’m seeing that each dough has its own special chacteristics which need to be identified and worked with.

The element that we were experimenting with was to reduce the fermentation time to achieve better browning. We got less oven spring without noticable change in the browning.

What do your think?

Tomorrow, I will alow more counter time to see what happens. But the dough has the feel of a denser quality. Excellent feeling but less airy. The same as the bake’s effect.

A thought just acured to me. Can I use the MR-138 as a proofing device to be used like the counter rise time. If so what temp. would you recommend I experiment with ? My room temp is 72.5 degrees. Or is it better not to use it that way?

MWTC
 
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MWTC,

You know, you aren’t helping me convince lilian that she really doesn’t need to add commercial yeast to her naturally-leavened dough to get decent oven spring 🙂 .

Seriously though, if all you changed was the ferment time of the roughly 63% “bigaâ€Â
 
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PizzaNerd,

"if all you changed was the ferment time of the roughly 63% “bigaâ€Â
 
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MWTC,

I was trying to rule out as many causes as possible. At this point, let’s wait to see what you get with your latest dough batch.

Another possibility that occurs to me based on your latest comments is that the change in the feel of the dough may have been because of the greater softening of the gluten structure from using the 24-hour “biga” version versus the 12-hour one. Over time, enzymes in the dough, mainly protease, attack the gluten and soften it. The longer that time, up to a point, the greater the softening of the gluten structure.

I was not trying to steer you to the diastatic malt at this point. I just didn’t want you to rush into it too quickly. As it turns out, you are about right on the amount of diastatic malt to use based on your total flour weight. My conversion data, which is based on Bob’s Red Mill diastatic malt, was off by one decimal place. Thanks for keeping me on my toes.
 
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So, you’re saying I should go back to the original recipe and do the 24 hour “biga” as before?

Is this to verify the loss of ovenspring? And we will work on the browning after that verification?

MWTC
 
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MWTC:
So, you’re saying I should go back to the original recipe and do the 24 hour “biga” as before?

Is this is to verify the loss of ovenspring? And we will work on the browning after that verification?

MWTC
MWTC,

Yes, as to both questions. I don’t work with “natural” poolish or sponge, so I am learning along with you as much as one can sitting behind a keyboard and not actually seeing what you are doing. You are my seeing eye dog 😃 .
 
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I’m tempted to double the honey to 2 tbs from 1 tbs.

What do you think?

MWTC
 
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MWTC:
I’m tempted to double the honey to 2 tbs from 1 tbs.

What do you think?

MWTC
MWTC,

It’s up to you, but 2 T. of honey in relation to 800 grams of flour comes to about 5.3%. Honey is sweeter than sucrose so you may end up with a sweeter crust than you would like. However, it should help with the browning.
 
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thank you pizzanerd i keep forgeting that the moister ablity in oven spring
let me ask you why you guys are interested so much with 00 flour would not that give the crust a bread type of bite? and as far as flovor goes and this is just atheory that i thought of today and i am going to try low hydration low yeast should yieled great bread flavor cause hydration delute the flavor and yeast eat the natural suger well i am going to try pizzanerd thanks again you should change yoru name to pizza making source i am cooking in a home oven that can reach 525 with a stone down at the bottom of the oven about one inch away from electric element it cooks the bottom very well but i have to change the dial to broil to cook the top cause my oven for some reason can only do the bottom or the top at one giving time thanks
 
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lilian,

There are three Caputo 00 flours available in the U.S. at the moment, but the most popular one, the Caputo 00 Pizzeria flour, has a protein content of 11.5-12.5%, which is perhaps most similar to our all-purpose flour. It is a very finely milled unbleached flour with no malting (it has a high falling number and relatively low amylase performance) and it is nonbromated (bromated flours are against the law in Italy). However, the gluten content (wet gluten) is different than all-purpose flour, which can necessitate a longer knead time to properly develop the gluten. Because of the lower protein content, the finished crust won’t be as chewy or have the same depth of color as a crust made from a higher protein, higher gluten flour.

It’s important to keep in mind that the Caputo flours are intended to be used for pizzas that are to be baked in very high temperature ovens, with a typical bake time of around two minutes (although I have heard of pizzas being baked in under a minute). The crust baked in such an oven will have a thin, crispy outer shell and a melt-in-your-mouth light and soft interior. A comparable dough baked in a standard home oven will usually have a chewier texture and maybe a bit of crispiness at the outer rim because of the longer bake time. The reason I mentioned the Caputo flour to MWTC was because he was looking for more crust flavor, and I think the Caputo flour lends itself nicely to the use of natural starters, especially in a room temperature environment, which develops better crust flavors in my opinion. I personally use all kinds of flours for all kinds of styles. But I occasionally like to have a Neapolitan style pizza. A simple Margherita pizza using Caputo flour, imported buffalo mozzarella cheese, San Marzano tomatoes (preferably the DOCs), a nice fruity olive oil, a bit of Sicilian sea salt, and a few basil leaves is hard to beat, even when baked in a home oven.
 
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PizzaNerd,

I baked another pizza last night using the 12 hour “biga” dough. I got the same results. It does spring in the oven but as before it is deminished compared to the 24 hour “biga”. I started the test batch, 24 hour “biga”, looks good so far. I kept the honey the same 1 tbs as before. Didn’t want to change the variables as much as possible.

I contacted wa dave and he said he uses the same flour in both the sour mix and the dough that he makes pizzas. He didn’t clairify which type it was so I asked him to tell me. I also asked him about the size and amount of dough in each size.

MWTC

Would you speak about the degree of starter activation and it effect on dough batches.
 
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MWTC,

Can you clarify a bit further which aspects of the starter activation you would like me to address? There are many aspects of starters that can affect the dough in which it is used, including the species of starter, its temperature before and at the time of incorporation into the dough, how well and how often it is fed, the amount of it that is used, etc.?

I did a quick search on the forum on the type of flour, dough ball weights and corresponding pizza sizes used by wa dave (Dave) in Australia. He has reported that he uses the Allied Mills Superb blend flour with 11% protein. The pizza sizes and dough ball weights for his sour mix doughs are 10" (260 g.), 13" (450 g.), 15" (650 g.) and 18" (850 g.) Based on thickness factors, I would characterize Dave’s pizzas as being medium thickness.
 
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Exactly right. Wa Dave e-mailed me back and he said he uses 11 % protien.

What I would like to understand about starters, I am using a wild yeast that I developed per American Pie by Reinhart, is the amount of activation needed to use the starter to its optium level. What are the visual clues that we are looking for? I have heard that we want to use it at its peak. I am feeding every third day per Reinhart and I am allowing it to activate before I use it. But what is to long and what isnt long enough. Is this something that we aquire through experimentation or is there a shorter avenue? I was thinging of adding a little starter to the recipe after the biga went through its fermentation but then the thought came to me, the starter is cold and not activated at all. So, if I was to use that method, I would assume that the starter would need to be activated to its peak. Again, what visual clues should be seen?

Remember this is my maiden voyage into this arena.

MWTC
 
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MWTC,

It’s hard to generalize on these matters because each starter has its own personality, or DNA, so to speak. However, there are some general activation methods that might help you get your starter in proper “working” condition. In your case, if you have been feeding your starter every three days, you should be in pretty good shape and should be able to get your starter in working condition pretty easily.

In your case, you should take your starter culture out of the refrigerator, remove a part of it, and feed it with flour and water. The amount of flour and water that you add to the starter will depend on what consistency of culture you desire to work with and the amount you want to use. Whatever hydration you decide to use, you should take note, preferably by weight, of the amount of flour and water added so that you can calculate its hydration. Ideally, over time, you want to use the same amounts of flour and water so that the hydration remains constant.

Some people make two versions of cultures, a liquid culture and a sponge culture, usually as a matter of preference or convenience or for use with different recipes. The difference is the amount of water. In Ed Wood’s book, Classic Sourdoughs, his liquid culture is 48% flour and 52% water, both by weight. His sponge culture is 65% flour and 35% water (also by weight). After feeding, each culture is proofed for 6 hours at 85 degrees F if a proofing box is used (you can use your MR-138 unit), or for 12 hours at a room temperature of 68-72 degrees F. This is the “working” culture. At the end of the relevant period, the working culture should be bubbling and foaming and expanding significantly in volume. In my experience, there is more bubbling and foaming with a loose starter culture than a stiff starter culture. Once fully activated, the working culture is combined with other ingredients to make the final dough, which is then subjected to its own fermentation regimen.

I haven"t worked up the numbers for your dough formulation but my recollection is that your first preferment stage is a “natural” poolish and your second preferment stage is a “natural” sponge (which I believe you have been referring to as a “biga”), with hydration similarities to the two cultures described by Ed Wood. If so, I believe you should be seeing some aspects of the behavior as discussed above, with at least some signs of bubbling and foaming and volume expansion. Usually people don’t combine cultures into multiple stages like you have been doing, or at least I haven’t seen or read anything to that effect, so I can’t say for sure what you should be seeing. But, if you haven’t been seeing the above signs, it is possible that your culture fermentation temperatures have been too low, or you haven’t given them enough fermentation time. Since you have a ThermoKool MR-138 unit, you might want to set it at 85 degrees F and see how long it takes for your starter (after feeding) to exhibit the characteristics mentioned above. You might be able to do this at both stages of your preferment, although I can only speculate as to how the second stage of your preferment will behave. Running the above test should give you the answer. This can be important since if your culture after the second stage is overfermented, it can have negative implications for the final product.

I assume that after you have used part of your starter culture to make your doughs you have been feeding the remaining portion with flour and water and returning the refreshed culture back to the refrigerator after a period of about an hour at room temperature. That is considered the proper way to treat the starter culture at this point.
 
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OK, thank-you for the summary. That basically is what I have been experiencing. Everything seems ok to this point. I do allow a little longer fermenting time once the feeding has taken palce. I do look for the bubbling that you refered to, it takes longer than an hour. More like 4 to 6. I will experiment with this as time passes.

Last night I completed the dough formulation for the 24 hour “biga” dough. It was back to the size that I have become accustomed to. Twice the size of the 12 hour biga. We will see the results in a few days. No doubt it is larger than the 12 hour “biga” formulation dough after the dough is balled out and refrigerated. A very noticable fluffy difference.

I baked another of the 24 hour “biga” dough last night. It was 7 days old. It was excellent. The oven spring was as before and the taste was excellent as before. So there is something to the additional 12 of fermentation with the “biga”. As with the other, the rim browning is the element that needs improving. The bottom browning was perfect.

I did get another reply from wa dave and His response is as follows;

We are metric here so I have put it in the weights we use.

10" = 260gm, 13" = 450gm, 15" = 650gm, 18" = 850gm

Dave

I’ll let you know of the results with the redo of the 24 hour “biga” ASAP.

MWTC
 
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MWTC,

At some point you might want to do an either-or with your two preferments or combine them in some fashion and determine the appropriate fermentation temperature and time. That might also help solve the problem with the crust coloration.

However, once your are satisfied with your final results, I think we should be able to improve the crust coloration.

The more I thought about what you have been doing, it seemed to me that I had read somewhere of an individual making pizza dough using the French three-stage levain process that is a successive three-stage process that apparently was devised for bread by Prof. Calvel, who was the originator of the autolyse process. I did some searching and found the discussion of the three-stage levain process at http://www.sourdoughhome.com. You will have to click on the “Recipes” link and scroll down to the three-stage levain recipe. There is an Excel document at the noted site that you can use to scale down the recipe from a commercial size to a home size. Since you already have enough on your plate at the moment, you might file this away for future reference.
 
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MWTC,

Following up on an earlier post about getting your starter culture activated, you may find this You Tube video of interest for making a Neapolitan-style pizza dough:
. The Neapolitan style pizza dough prepared in the video uses a small amount of Camaldoli starter and Caputo 00 Pizzeria flour (I know this because I know the fellow who created the video). Your activation results may be somewhat different because the poster of the video lives at a high elevation. The mixer in the video is a Santos mixer. It is a semi-professional mixer. The 20-minute rest period at the end of mixing is called a riposo. The riposo and the final turn of the mixer are standard Neapolitan dough making practices. I am sure you will recognize the ThermoKool MR-138 unit.
 
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Baked the last 24 Hr “Biga” dough tonight. Excellent dough, 8th day, just needs better browning. Excellent flavor, mild, but satisfying. I was actually focusing on the sauce. Which is excellent, because before I wouldn’t take my focus away. Before I couldn’t care less about anything else. My focus is flavor production. Progress!!!

Started a batch of the All-Trumps at 75% and 25% Caputo Pizzerria, 24Hour “biga” @ 15% Starter.

The redo at 24 hour “biga” batch will be ready tonight and forward.

Excellent website, www.sourdoughhome.com

MWTC
 
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