Continue to Site

Increasing the flavor of dough

PizzaNerd,

Yes, it is repeatable. I just baked the redo on the 24 hr “biga” dough. It came out the same as before, excellent. The oven spring was just right. The browning needs just a little work, not much.

Just finished the All Trumps and Caputo combo 24 hour “biga” dough. It went into the fridge at 73.5 degrees. The same as the others. It will be ready on Sunday. Felt excellent.

I am allowing a 24 hour starter activation period, it’s been performing very well to this point.

MWTC
 
Last edited:
PizzaNerd’

The results are in. The combo of All Trumps and Caputo Pizzeria flour turned out to be excellent. The effect that I see is an increase in tenderness (a lightness in texture) with excellent ovenspring and excellent flavor. Needs to be tweeked to get a little more browning but not much.

What would you suggest?

Sugar, Diastatic Malt, Whey, Pan type, Oven tempature, Oven stone position, Baking times? Is is just experimenting with these elements till the solution is found?

MWTC
 
Last edited:
MWTC,

I’m glad you liked the Caputo/All Trumps blend. You essentially made a Dom DeMarco DiFara’s dough but better since he makes dough balls to be used within about 2 hours, without attempting to improve the flavor of the crust beyond what is provided by the flours themselves.

Before answering your questions in greater detail, can you tell me how you baked the latest pizza (pan, stone, etc.), at which oven rack level, at what temperature, and for how long? Also, can you tell me what types and brands of cheeses you are using?
 
Last edited:
I have been playing around with it a little. The first time, using the 25% Caputos with the All Trumps, I got a lighter bottom effect. So I lowered the stone to the bottom rack, pre-heated the oven at 550 for 1 hour. I baked it in a 1-1/2 tin plated steel pan. When I started baking it I lowered the tempature down to 475 and baked it on the stone till the bottom was golden brown. At that point the cheese was melted, (25% Dairyland Muenster, 75% Geno’s Pride Mozzarella 2%) and I finished it on the middle rack, until the cheese was browning. Everything was perfect except the cornicone was a little lighter than I would like it to be.

I changed this because I am getting the cheese to brown to fast even at 475% in the middle rack position. The stone has been on the rack 2nd from the bottom and has been ok till I went to the Caputos. Which bakes a little lighter.

MWTC
 
Last edited:
pizzanerd do you care to provide the formula and dough proccess ? are you using wild yeasted starter or commercially yeasted bigga or both ? thanks
 
Last edited:
Looks like you guys are almost there. MWTC try sugar in your crust after you mix your biga with water. I use 24 oz with the recipe I gave you earlier. Pizzanerd what would you think if I changed form cake flour and put OO flour instead would that give me the crunch that I already have. This has been great reading guys. Keep it going it is enjoayable to see that passion you both have. Also go to pizzamaking.com they have many discussions about pizza. Thanks

Todd
 
Last edited:
MWTC,

I specifically asked you about the cheese because I know how difficult it can be to achieve the proper temperature profile and heat distribution in a home oven to balance the doneness of the crust and the cheeses and toppings. What you might try is to put the cheeses down first, followed by the sauce and toppings, but leaving part of the cheeses uncovered so that it shows in the finished pizza. This method should protect the cheeses better.

You are correct that the Caputo 00 flour yields less color in the finished crust. The Caputo flour is a low protein flour with less starch damage than out domestic grains/flours, and it is unmalted (with a high falling number). Consequently, there is not as much amylase enzyme activity to extract the natural sugars from damaged starch. You can compensate in several ways, including adding sugar to the dough, or more honey (which the yeast prefers over sucrose), dried dairy whey, or dry powdered milk. I like the rheological (flow characteristics) that honey provides to the dough, and I believe it makes the dough more extensible and easier to handle. The advantage of dried dairy whey is that it includes lactose, which is a milk sugar, and promotes browning of the crust without adding much in the way of sweetness because the lactose has a low sweetness factor. Dry powdered milk would be my last choice, even if it is the high-heat baker’s grade. It will promote browning but it is easier to just use sugar in some simpler form if that is what you want to achieve, plus you avoid any other effects on the dough that you may not want.

A while back we also talked about diastatic malt. I think it would be an interesting experiment to see if using diastatic malt, which will provide additional amylase enzyme activity, increases the extraction of natural sugars from the Caputo/All Trumps flour blend such that there are higher levels of residual sugar in the dough at the time of baking to contribute to crust browning. I will leave to you to decide whether to try this method. Maybe you can try this method if the others don’t provide the desired results.

Of course, you can also use the broiler in your oven to promote further crust browning, or just move the pizza to an upper oven rack position toward the end of the bake, where there is more heat to induce further browning.
 
Last edited:
60.png
lilian:
pizzanerd do you care to provide the formula and dough proccess ? are you using wild yeasted starter or commercially yeasted bigga or both ? thanks
Click to expand...
lilian,

Since MWTC introduced his dough formulation to the forum, it is perhaps more appropriate that he lay out the final iteration of that formulation, whenever that materializes, if he is willing to do so. But to answer your question about what form of yeast he is using, it is only wild yeast in his natural starter/preferment. I believe that he used some commercial yeast in the beginning but is no longer doing so. If I am wrong on this, he can set the record straight.
 
Last edited:
48.png
thincrust:
Pizzanerd what would you think if I changed form cake flour and put OO flour instead would that give me the crunch that I already have.
Click to expand...
Todd,

If you substitute the Caputo Pizzeria 00 flour for the cake flour, that will change the total protein content of the combination, which may affect the results you are now getting. For example, you previously indicated that you are now using 12.5 lb. of cake flour and 50 lb. of All Trumps. A typical cake flour has a protein content of around 8%. The All Trumps has a protein content of 14.2%. In the quantities of cake flour and All Trumps that you are using, I estimate that the total protein content of the combination is 9.24%. How do I know that? Well, I used a handy calculator found at http://www.unclesalmon.com/tools/food.php (it’s the tool on the right hand side).

For purposes of using the tool for your example, I used the King Arthur Queen Guinevere cake flour in the top pull-down menu as a proxy for your cake flour, and I used the King Arthur Sir Lancelot flour (KASL) in the second pull-down menu as a proxy for your All Trumps flour. I entered a mass value of 62.5 lb. in the first target box below, and entered values into the target percent box until I got 50 lb. for the KASL and 12.5 lb. for the Guinevere cake flour in the Mass A and Mass B boxes below, respectively. In this case, the magic number that worked in the target percent box was 9.24%.

Using the same approach with the tool, if you were to substitute the Caputo 00 Pizzeria flour for the cake flour you are now using, the total protein content of the combination of the Caputo Pizzeria flour (which has a rated protein content of 11.5-12.5%) and the All Trumps flour would rise to 12.44%. That would be a big jump and while it might produce acceptable results, you perhaps would have to increase the hydration of your dough formula, and perhaps make other changes also.

I might add that there is another Caputo 00 flour that has a lower protein content than the Caputo Pizzeria flour that might be a better choice in your case as a substitute for the cake flour that you are now using. That other Caputo 00 flour is called Extra Blu, and has a protein content of around 9.5% as best as I have been able to determine. Combining the Extra Blu and All Trumps would yield a total protein content of 10.44%, or a little over one percent more than your current blend. You might have to tweak the present hydration level a bit but perhaps by not much. I can’t tell you whether the crispiness characteristic of your current crusts would change with the substitution. The Caputo flour is not identical to cake flour, so you would quite likely have to do some experimenting to find out if it an improvement or not.

Keep in mind that the Caputo flours are much more expensive than cake flour. So, that is a factor to consider even if your results are better than what you are now achieving.
 
Last edited:
ty pizzanerd
here is how i bake my pizza in the home oven and my oven only work on bake or broil and not both at the same time
i removed all the shelves i put 4 fired bricks on the bottom of the oven around the electric element then i put a pizza stone that i bought from walmart on the top of the bricks heat my oven at the highest temp at 525
for about 1.5 to 2 hours then i bake my pizza (65%hydration 100%alltrump 4% crisco 2%suger 0.6%idy retarded 10 to 15 hours) 2 minutes on bake and then 2 minutes on broil and it allways come out perfect as far as oven rise and browning .
i know you guys doing things differently in your formulas but i thought this maybe helps thanks
 
Last edited:
lilian,

Thank you for the information on your oven configuration. My home oven works like yours.

What is the size of your pizza stone, and what is the dough ball weight that you use and the size of pizza that corresponds to that dough ball weight?
 
Last edited:
Thincrust,

Thanks for the kind words, hope this thread helps others that are seeking flavor improvement.

What brand of cake flour are you using?

MWTC
 
Last edited:
PizzaNerd,

I’ll be experimenting and will let you know the results.

MWTC
 
Last edited:
PizzaNerd,

Last night I did as you suggested. I tried putting the cheese down first, then the sauce and the toppings. No real change. Same cornicone coloration. I even tried the broiler at the end, it curled up the pepperoni but didn’t effect the browning much at all.

I did have a thought. Months back I was experimenting with Harvest King’s Bread Flour, it browned up beautifully but I couldn’t stand the taste. What do you think is the difference with Harvest King as compared to All Trumps, KASL, and Honeyville? If we could isolate the difference maybe we could effect the change that I am looking for.

MWTC
 
Last edited:
60.png
MWTC:
What do you think is the difference with Harvest King as compared to All Trumps, KASL, and Honeyville? If we could isolate the difference maybe we could effect the change that I am looking for.
Click to expand...
MWTC,

I have not worked with the Honeyville flour so I can’t comment on it. However, the All Trumps and KASL are quite similar in that they are both high-gluten flours and their protein contents are the same, 14.2%. They also have similar absorption and ash values. The All Trumps appears to be malted a bit more than the KASL and, depending on which All Trumps is available to you, it can be bleached, unbleached, or bromated. The KASL is unbleached and not bromated, and its specs are a tad tighter than the specs for the All Trumps. For all intents and purposes, I consider those two flours to be pretty much interchageable (although there may be some applications where the bromated All Trumps may be preferred).

The Harvest King flour is considered a bread flour. It has a stated range of protein of 11.3-12.3%, but the specs say 12%. The grains from which the Harvest King flour is milled are not identical to the grains used for the other flours. I don’t think using the Harvest King flour is the solution for your browning problem. In fact, the browning could be less unless you are able to find a way to compensate during baking. I think I would move on to Plan B and use one of the other browning agents mentioned before.
 
Last edited:
60.png
lilian:
pizza berd what is the absorption rate for 00 flour
Click to expand...
lilian,

For the Caputo 00 Pizzeria flour it is 55-57%. However, operators and others who have very high temperature ovens and experience in making and working with high hydration doughs frequently use up to 65%.
 
Last edited:
PizzaNerd,

The first run with increasing the sugar amount had no effect.

I added 2% on the first batch. There was no difference in the bake. So I doubled it to 4%, this batch will be ready tonight. I am keeping the 1 tbs of honey and adding regular table sugar, at 2% each time. I’ll let you know how it turns out.

What is the maximum % for sugar in the dough?

MWTC
 
Last edited:
60.png
MWTC:
What is the maximum % for sugar in the dough?
Click to expand...
MWTC,

I rarely use sugar in my pizza doughs but I understand that you have to get to around 5% sugar by weight of flour for most people to detect sweetness in the finished crust. However, some people are more sensitive to sugar than others, and beyond 5% you may find the crust tastes too sweet (more like a dessert than a bread product). Moreover, if you use too much sugar it may cause increased tenderness in the crumb (along with the oil), which you may or may not like, and also pose a problem if during baking the sugar caramelizes and causes premature or excessive browning of the bottom of the crust. If you are using a pan, that may not be as big a problem as baking on a stone deck.

Since you are adding sugar at a late stage in the dough making process, I would think that there is enough sugar in the dough at the time of baking to contribute to crust color.

I might add that sometimes sugar is used to mask other flavors (usually unpleasant or unwanted flavors) so I don’t think you want to use so much that it masks the natural crust flavors you are getting from using your biga.
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top