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Increasing the flavor of dough

ThinCrust,

By percent, how much biga do you use in your recipe? I think PizzaNerd figured it to be around 6.5%, does that sound right to you? ADY or IDY?

MWTC
 
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MWTC:
Just for clairification, why is using a starter better than using ADY, IDY or compressed yeast, for flavor development?
MWTC,

This is a highly technical subject, and rather than trying to distill the differences in my own words, I will instead refer you to http://www.angelfire.com/ab/bethsbread/ … dough.html. If you do a Google search, you will find a lot more information on the subject–more than you will ever want.
 
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MWTC 6.5 percent sounds good and IDY, Pizzanerd Chris must be from New York Because, I make my own mozz, Polly o mozz curd, My own Sausage pork shoulder, pancetta and spices, my own meatballs top sirloin and home made sausage, And I use Straziale “dop” tomatoes. The only draw back is I have Bakers Prides. Not a coal burning or wood burning oven, but I am going to change that. The reason I do all this is I am in Reno Nevada and the frustration of getting quality products here is madding. So when I open 5 years ago I sort of cheated and bought pre made product and it really started pissing me off. So I went back to what I know. I also make my own bread for subs. This has been enjoyable for me because you guys are showing passion for food. THANKS, not alot of that on the West Coast.
PS I am to lazy to make dough by hand, got a 60 qt hobart that is older than me and I’m 47.

Todd
 
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Todd,

Sometime when you have a spare moment you may want to take a look at this discussion of Chris Bianco’s passion that has made Pizzeria Bianco one of the foremost artisan pizza operations in the country: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index. … l#msg30743. You will see from the discussion that Chris does not use natural starters but he does appear to be using some form of preferment to get better crust flavors. You will also be able to read how Chris went to Iowa to meet with a pig farmer who raises pigs like they do in Italy. Chris was looking for the perfect pig for his prosciutto.
 
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Pizzanerd, Nice little article. I spend so much time making things that I don’t have time to read about other pizza people. It nice to see some else has the passion and put out a product that has love and care. I complain so much about the lack of effort and desire by the chefs and cooks on the west coast. It makes my heart feel better to see someone else cares about their product. I miss all of my old haunts in New York, New Jersey. Grimaldi’s and TJ’s in Asbury Park just to name a few. Also I miss Italian food. Thanks you gave this guy a smile today.

Todd
 
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ThinCrust,

Wow, you are a buzy, hard working dude!!!

I am still in search for an excellent Italian Sausage Recipe. Do you have one that would be willing to share? I just tried some from a pizza that Hungry Howies uses and it was fantastic. I can’t find or produce anything even close to that.

I think PizzaNerd is living somewhere in Texas. Great Individual, and an wealth of information and a uncanny willingness to share.

MWTC
 
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PizzaNerd,

Thanks for the link, I just printed it out and will be studying shortly. The link didn’t work but using the search mode on the web page found the article you referenced.

Last night I baked a pizza which I used the bulk ferment and after that ferment (15 Hours) it was balled and placed in refrigeration for another 24 hours. I’m sorry to report it lost some of its tenderness. I liked the flavor but what happen to the tenderness? I baked it as you suggested but it went down in quality. The dough was extremely soft coming out of refigeration, thought it was going to be the best so far but after the counter warm up (1 hour) and the bake I was disappointed. What happened? It didn’t brown up as well either. I’ll bake another tonight, any suggestions?

Does it have anything to do with the fact that, as you stated before, after the bulk ferment, an additional 2-3 hour further room temp. seasoning and then into the oven, no refigeration?

MWTC
 
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MWTC,

I have conducted some limited tests to see if I could “kill” a dough that was made using a natural starter/preferment. It is possible. If you let the dough ferment too long, it will die. What usually happens is that the dough runs out of natural sugars to continue to feed the yeast, the enzymes (mainly protease) attack the gluten structure and weaken it, and water is released, making the dough wet/moist and clammy. If you catch the dough in time before it has expired, you may be able to make a pizza out of it, but the crust is likely to be more like a cracker with mediocre oven spring and lack crust color (because there is insufficient residual sugar at the time of baking to promote browning). If you don’t catch the dough in time, you are likely to find that you can’t even shape the dough into a skin without the skin tearing. If you try to add more flour to compensate for the wetness, that will usually not work. If you manage somehow to shape and dress the skin to make your pizza, it will be a failure. For all intents and purposes, the dough is dead, and you will have wasted the sauce, cheese and toppings.

In your case, I think what happened is that you let the dough ferment too long before refrigerating it. If your starter culture was at peak activity, 15 hours at room temperature was most likely too long. I don’t know the intimate details of your starter, but I think that 6-8 hours at room temperature would have been more appropriate before refrigerating. A combination of 15 hours at room temperature and another day in the refrigerator, plus another 2-3 hours at room temperature, quite likely pushed your dough over the edge, or maybe just short of it. Refrigeration slows down the relevant processes involving yeast, enzymes and bacteria, but they don’t completely stop. An alternative would have been to refrigerate the dough after making it, or within a few hours later, if you were trying to manage the dough to suit your schedule. You would have then made up for the reduced rate of fermentation by allowing the dough to warm up at room temperature for several hours before using.

In short, I think you pushed your dough to the limit or just short of it. But, I think and hope that you learned something from the exercise. It’s a humbling experience but an important one as part of your pizza education when using natural starters/preferments. I often remind people that once the dough has been made and been “programmed” by what you did to make it, it controls you, not the other way around. With natural starters, this is even more so the case.
 
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PizzaNerd,

Ok, back to the drawing board.

I did have a thought. Seeing that I am using my starting culture, is it ok to use it to start a biga or poolish? After reading the material you suggested, it would seem that better flavor development would be achieved through the use of the starter than commercial yeast. If that is the case, would I use 5% of the biga or poolish water weight or 5%of the flour weight of either? Or do I use 5% of the whole recipe water weight?

What do you think?

MWTC
 
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MWTC,

A classic biga or poolish is based on using commercial yeast but, yes, you can make “natural” versions if you’d like. However, a classic biga in the bread world has a hydration of about 50-55% and a classic poolish has a hydration of 100%. The biga will be stiff and the poolish will be loose, and will influence the fermentation differently as a result. Also, you will usually use more than 5% because the biga or poolish will be used at preferment levels and confer attributes on the dough into which they are incorporated beyond leavening. I would start at around 15-20% of the formula flour. Depending on the dough formulation and temperatures you use, this will of course change the fermentation times and processes. This is something that you will have to experiment with in the context of the dough formulation you elect to use. Plus you will want to adjust the formula hydration to compensate for the hydrations of the biga or poolish. Otherwise, your final dough into which the preferments are incorporated may be too dry or too wet. If you wish at this point, you can make adjustments by feel, by adding more flour or water.
 
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MWTC,

4 Lbs pork shoulder or butt
2 lbs. of a nice Italian Pancetta
2 Tablespoons of Oregano Leaf
2 1/2 Tablespoons of Course Sea Salt
1 to 2 Red Onions
10 to 12 Gloves of garlic
2 1/2 teaspoons of Black Pepper
2 1/2 Tablespoons of Fennel Seed. Must be passed trough to crush up
8 ounces of prok fat or fat back
1 to 1/12 cups of a great red wine. Nice and Dry

Now you can add paprika for a different taste also get one of those little Kitchen aids and start there you can grind upup all items. I have this old 60qt and I grind the snot out of everything.
if you other questions email me [email protected] Good luck have fun and enjoy

Todd

OOPS I forgot to tell you let marinate for about 6 to 8 hours Sorry
 
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Sweet !!! 😃

ThinCrust that is awesome.

Thank-you very much. 😃

I’ll let you know of the results.

MWTC
 
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PizzaNerd,

This is tonights experiment.

Biga: = 62% Hydration

120 grams Active Starter, 50/50 by weight, 5 hour warm-up to activate.

340 grams Honeyville High Gluten
60 grams from starter
400 grams total Flour

190 grams 70 degree water
60 grams from starter
250 grams total

Mixed and covered to let ferment for 24 hours.

The recipe:

800 gram flour (biga included)
504 grams water (biga included =63% hydration)
120 grams starter (included in the biga)
1 tbs honey
1 tbs kosher salt
1 tbs olive oil

Mixed for 2 min. 5 min autolyse. 5 min knead

Refigerate overnight and beyond.

I think this is the right direction to proceed. Until I get the Caputo Pizza Flour.

Do you see anything that might be better? Thoughts?

MWTC
 
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MWTC,

I have a couple of thoughts. One, if your “natural poolish” is at the peak of its activity before 6 hours have expired, I would be inclined to use it then rather than waiting the full 6 hours (although it shouldn’t be fatal if you are off a bit). Two, you might try a longer rest period than 5 minutes. There is no magic formula for the rest period that I am aware of, but you might try 20 minutes for the dough batch size you are using (close to 3 pounds).
 
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PizzaNerd,

Are you saying that a “Natural Biga” maximium usefulness is 6 hours?

Because…, Oops!

I am going to have to try the 6 and under biga idea next time because it was already 10 hours and it had moved about 25-30% and its at home and I am at work. I planned on trying it just like I was with the commercial yeast biga, about 20 hours at room temp. and then mixing the remainder of the recipe, then right into the refigerator for an additional 24 hours. It will be interesting to see how it compares to the previous biga attempts. Which I considered successful.

MWTC
 
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MWTC,

Just to keep our terminology straight, I believe that you are using a natural poolish rather than a biga because you indicated that you are using a preferment that is made up of 50/50 flour and water by weight. The hydration of your preferment is therefore, 60 g. flour/60 g. water, or 100%. A classic poolish has 100% hydration. Over time, the term “biga” has been bastardized by bakers such that it has become somewhat generic for just about any preferment. I am more of a purist and, as such, I try to use the classic definitions.

As to your question about the six-hour period, no, I am not saying that the maximum usefulness of a natural biga, or a natural poolish for that matter, is 6 hours. It will depend on the level of activity of the starter culture you use. Temperature will also affect the time to use the culture. In the bread world, when a poolish is used, one looks for a doming of the top of the poolish, followed by a receding which signals that it is OK to use the poolish. Since a biga is stiff, you usually won’t see that effect. That may be one reason why bread bakers who use bigas fix everything–including the amount and type of yeast (commercial yeast), fermentation temperature, and time. In due course, you have to learn how to use preferments to make your pizza dough and be able to hold a full-time job at the same time. If you ever get the crust flavors you are after from using natural starters/preferments, you may want to invest in a ThermoKool unit to help you control fermentation temperatures better.
 
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The reason why I called it a biga is because it is not 100% hydration which the starter is. Natural because you called it that, seeing that I was using the starter instead of the commercial yeast. The ratio is 62% hydration for the biga, starter included. So what is the correct term for what I am doing, “Natural Biga”?

I do have the ThremoKool unit. Just havn’t used it yet. It will be in action as soon as I get a better grip on things. This is my first voyage into the Starter World. So far its going well, in part due to your assistance.

MWTC
 
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MWTC,

A biga is a preferment that is made up of flour, water and yeast. The final dough into which that preferment is incorporated is called just “dough”, or “final dough”. It doesn’t have a fancy name that I am aware of. I refer to the basic dough formulation itself as the “Total Formula” since it reflects the total hydration, and the amounts of the rest of the ingredients, from flour, to salt, sugar, oil, etc. A part of the Total Formula reflects the preferment. In my work with natural preferments, I first determine what “final” hydration I am looking for (which is usually closely related to the type of flour I plan to use). I then determine how much preferment I want to use, either as a percent of “Total Formula” flour, or as a percent of the Total Formula water, or as a percent of the total dough weight, which are three of the most common ways that preferments are characterized. Knowing how much water and flour is in the preferment allows me to calculate how much additional flour and water to use with the preferment (along with the other ingredients) to produce the “final dough” as part of the final mix. As long as my numbers are correct and accurate, there are few problems with overly wet or overly dry final doughs.
 
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PizzaNerd,

Last nights “Natural Biga” was more than doubled when I got to it. But that is what I was experiencing with the same biga made with 1/2 tsp ADY. So to that point the results are the same. I mixed the remainder of the ingredients and used the 20 minute Autolyse period as you suggested. The dough felt great. I balled it up and place in refrigeration and will bake one tonight and some more in the days ahead to see the results. In my previous formulation using 1/2 tsp. ADY, I found that I needed to add an additional 1/2 tsp. IDY to get the oven spring after the biga was added to the mix. But with this first attempt I am hoping adding the remaining flour will give the yeast in the starter additional food and won’t need the additional yeast. The first bake will tell me what I need to know. Which is how I figured out that the aforementioned formulation needed the additional IDY, it baked to flat. Adding the additional 1/2 tsp. IDY solved that problem. If it bakes flat, I will experiment with adding some more starter.

I got the Caputo Pizzaria Flour and will try it with the All Trumps. I plan to use a 25% Caputo and 75% All Trumps. I’m hoping for that crispy effect spoken of in an earlier reply, as well as the improved flavor.

Would explain the best use of the ThermoKool MR-138. http://www.thebuzzelectronics.com/item. … _num=MR138 Just a starting point for me to launch from.

MWTC
 
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